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<DIV>Dennis,</DIV>
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<DIV>The Church (i.e. the Magisterium lead by the successor of Peter) does not make itself the arbiter of anything. Jesus did that Himself and even sent the Holy Spirit to protect the Church in matter of Faith and morals. Not only does She have the authority but also the obligation to protect Jesus' Mystical Body from harm. Granted, this has been done to a greater or lesser degree throughout history but that is a discussion of another time.</DIV>
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<DIV>There is no such thing as a consecrated Host being "just" a wafer or the Precious Blood being "just" wine. It is what it is. After all, St Paul tells us in 1 Cor 11:27-29 that if we eat and drink unworthily then we eat and drink condemnation unto ourselves. When Jesus said that the bread is His Body and the drink is His Blood, He did condition that by saying "Unless you don't believe it is" or "unless you eat and drink with unconfessed sins."</DIV>
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<DIV>Dianne</DIV>
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Dennis Orr <dennisorr2@cox.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dianne;</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It always interests me as I observe the desire of the church to pontificate righteousness. If I read my Bible correctly, 1 Corinthians 11:26-32, teaches that the responsibility for communion participation rests with the believer, not the church.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In order to be religious, we attempt half measures to make us palatable to the religious community. If, as I read the the text, the "christian" eats or drinks with unconfessed sin in the life, it is Gods' purpose to discipline that person, even if it results in the death of the congregant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If the person who comes for communion is a "cultural christian", who is on the church roll, but has not been "born again" by the Spirit of God, then all that person is doing is eating a wafer and drinking wine. There is no interaction from the Holy Spirit because there is no relationship to the church or to God. That person will continue the ritual until death, and go to Hell because he has never come into a relationship with the Son of God.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When the church takes the position of "trans-substantiation" it becomes the arbiter of discerning who is a "real" christian who is a "cultural" christian, and take unto itself an impossible task.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I personally do not believe that many in the church have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They are raised in the communion and die in the communion without ever addressing their requirement for a transformed life as detailed in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My personal observations may be totally wrong, but I think that we have to address excommunication where we see murderers by abortion proclaiming their right to communion. We need to apply the truth of Romans 1:18-32 to separate the "Sheep" from the "Goats".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dennis G. Orr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rcdianne@yahoo.com href="mailto:rcdianne@yahoo.com">Dianne Dawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 06, 2004 6:16 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] A must read - further info about "No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians"</DIV>
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>SCCL <<A href="mailto:sccl@bellsouth.net">sccl@bellsouth.net</A>></I></B> wrote:
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<P>From: "SCCL" <SCCL@BELLSOUTH.NET><BR>To: "Dianne Dawson" <RCDIANNE@YAHOO.COM><BR>Subject: Fw: [LifeNews.com] Three Catholic Bishops Say No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians<BR>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:46:56 -0400<BR><BR>This one says Bishop Baker has told the priests they cannot lift the ban themselves:<BR><BR>Bishop Baker went further in a memo to parish priests by saying that they could not determine if a politician could again receive communion. That decision is up to him, Baker said.<BR><BR><STRONG>Three Catholic Bishops Say No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians<BR></STRONG><A href="http://www.lifenews.com/nat705.html">http://www.lifenews.com/nat705.html</A></P>
<P>by Steven Ertelt<BR>LifeNews.com Editor<BR>August 4, 2004<BR><BR>Atlanta, GA (LifeNews.com) -- Three leading Catholic bishops in<BR>southern states said Wednesday that elected officials who back<BR>abortion and refuse to recant their position should be denied communion in Catholic churches in their jurisdictions.<BR><BR>The Archbishop of Atlanta and bishops in Charlotte, North Carolina and Charleston, South Carolina put in place some of the strongest guidelines on communion and abortion.<BR><BR>They said pro-abortion politicians must publicly renounce their views and seek permission from the bishops to continue receiving communion. Their decision affects more than 200 churches.<BR><BR>"Catholics in political life have the responsibility to exemplify in their public service [the pro-life] teaching of the Church, and to work for the protection of all innocent life," the bishops said.<BR><BR>"Catholic public officials who consistently support abortion on demand are cooperati! ng with
evil in a public manner," the bishops wrote. "By supporting pro-abortion legislation they participate in manifest grave sin, a condition which excludes them from admission to Holy Communion as long as they persist in the pro-abortion stance."<BR><BR>Atlanta Archbishop John Donoghue, Charleston Bishop Robert Baker and Charlotte Bishop Peter Jugis signed the joint statement called, "Worthy to Receive the Lamb: Catholics in Political Life and the Reception of Holy Communion."<BR><BR>Bishop Baker went further in a memo to parish priests by saying that they could not determine if a politician could again receive communion. That decision is up to him, Baker said.<BR><BR>"This is pretty draconian," Frances Kissling, president of the Washington-based Catholics For a Free Choice, told the Associated Press in response.<BR><BR>"It certainly does not seem to be a mainstream strategy," Kissling said. "The overwhelming majority of Catholic people do not believe it is appropriate for a bi! shop to
use Communion as a political sledgehammer to gain obedience."<BR><BR>However, a Zogby International poll of 1,388 Catholics conducted in May shows pro-abortion presidential nominee John Kerry getting the support of only 20% of Catholic voters on issues where he disagrees with the position of the church.<BR><BR>Sixty-five percent of respondents said they would be less likely to vote for a candidate, like Kerry, who would appoint only judicial nominees who backed the Roe v. Wade decision allowing abortion. Only 16 percent said they would be more likely to support such a candidate.<BR><BR>In June, the nation's Catholic bishops decided that they would not make a collective decision whether or not to deny communion to politicians who support abortion.<BR><BR>Since then, many bishops have said pro-abortion elected officials should voluntarily refrain from taking the Christian sacrament until they change their position.<BR><BR>Related web sites:<BR>Read the three bishops' statemen! t - <A
href="http://www.archatl.com/archbishops/donoghue/20040804.html">http://www.archatl.com/archbishops/donoghue/20040804.html</A><BR>National Catholic Bishops' statement on communion and<BR>abortion - <A href="http://www.usccb.org/bishops/catholicsinpoliticallife.htm">http://www.usccb.org/bishops/catholicsinpoliticallife.htm</A><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>
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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps 42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps 42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
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