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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I've come across priests (Jesuit) who have said in
their sermons that the feeding of the 5000 was due to the miracle of people
deciding to share what they brought, so a few fish and loaves started the
sharing, and people brought the rest out of what they brought with.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This blogger also thinks that the teaching on
Purgatory was initiated by Eusebius, based on Plato's writings, and only then
were a few verses in the Bible found to support it ... and then it became
tradition. I'll try to find some info on that ... and then that puts him
in perspective. Like the people who don't mind Jesus' resurrection being
simply a metaphor. Maybe I take his opinions too seriously, because he's
ex-Adventist, now Catholic, and disapproves of my attempts at
apologetics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David's hope for his son, Paul's hope for the
Gentiles, and God's ability to work outside the sacraments (confession for
Protestants, baptism for unbaptised adults of other religions) helps me have
faith that God does so for unbaptised infants too. Unfortunately dwelling
on the damnation of infants as well as partial birth abortion recently leaves me
disturbed for several days afterwards; it's very unpleasant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>God bless,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcdianne@yahoo.com href="mailto:rcdianne@yahoo.com">Dianne Dawson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=skorsman@theotokos.co.za
href="mailto:skorsman@theotokos.co.za">Stephen Korsman</A> ; <A
title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 23, 2007 1:35
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Apologetics] Limbo</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Stephen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with you that this guy's post is disturbing. I can't see
how he can pass himself off as a Catholic apologist. Anyway, Limbo has
never been given the authority of being a Doctrine. Scripture is very
clear that unless you are baptized you cannot enter into the Kingdom of
God. At the same time, it is unreasonable to think that God, in
His infinite Mercy and Justice, would condemn an innocent to Hell simply
because there was no opportunity to be baptized. Until the theology
could be studied and defined further, theologians put forth the idea of
"Limbo." This was actually not a new concept, the Jews believe(d)
in <EM>Sheol</EM> which is a place for the righteous who have died.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Catholics recognize three types of baptism: Water, Blood, and
Desire. Naturally, baptism by water is the most common form of
baptism. Baptism of blood would be conferred upon aborted babies
and those who died for the Faith (the Christian Martyrs) without being
first baptized by water are just two examples. There are those who have
a strong desire to be baptized yet they die before being able to be baptized
by water (due to some tradegy, sudden illness, etc.). These people are
baptized by desire.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dianne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Stephen Korsman <skorsman@theotokos.co.za></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What is everyone's take on the new Limbo
story?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Original article at <A
href="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm">http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><EM>VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After
several years of study, the Vatican's International Theological Commission
said there are good reasons to hope that babies who die without being
baptized go to heaven.<BR><BR>In a document published April 20, the
commission said the traditional concept of limbo -- as a place where
unbaptized infants spend eternity but without communion with God -- seemed
to reflect an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><EM>...</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#000080><FONT face=Arial size=2> The 41-page
document, titled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being
Baptized," was published in Origins, the documentary service of </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Catholic News Service</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>. Pope
Benedict XVI authorized its publication earlier this
year.</FONT></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why was the document published by the USCCB in
a place where only those with a paid subscription can get at it? I
don't think that's normal Vatican practice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To what extent do you guys think this is a
definite part of Tradition that Pope Benedict cannot remove? Sure,
none of this has been official magisterial teaching, but Evangelium Vitae
is, and comes close to indicating that aborted babies may be with God (the
original stated as much.) And if salvation is possible for "who
through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His
Church" [Vatican II, LG16], does that limit that salvation to Limbo
too? If not, why are babies limited to limbo? (What I'm not
concerned about is the necessity of baptism, which I believe. What I
am concerned about is the effect on Tradition, doctrine, dogma,
infallibility, papal heresy, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I've read Fr Kimel's series on Limbo
here - <A
href="http://catholica.pontifications.net/?page_id=2025">http://catholica.pontifications.net/?page_id=2025</A>
- and James Akin - <A
href="http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/limbo_in_limbo.html">http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/limbo_in_limbo.html</A>
- which predate this excitement, and which make the most sense to
me, but I'd like your take on the following (some are not directly
addressing unbaptised infants, but there's no reason to exclude them from
the issue discussed):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Babies go to
hell:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ecumenical Council of Florence, Cantate Domino,
1442:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regarding children, indeed, because of danger
of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them
by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they
are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of
God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be
deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as
it can be done conveniently</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decree to the
Armenians:</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The souls of those who die in mortal sin or
with only original sin soon go down into hell, but there they receive
different punishments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>St Anselm:<BR>“For they even receive
everlasting torments, who never sinned by their own will. And hence it is
written, ‘Even the infant of a single day is not pure in His sight upon
earth.’”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>St Augustine, On the soul and it's
origin:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let no one promise infants who have not been
baptized a sort of middle place of happiness between damnation and Heaven,
for this is what the Pelagian heresy promised them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>St Augustine, Epistle to Jerome:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anyone who would say that even infants who pass
from this life without participation in the Sacrament of Baptism shall be
made alive in Christ goes counter to the preaching of the Apostle and
condemns the whole Church, because it is believed without doubt that there
is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in
Christ.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Babies go to
Limbo:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Synod of Carthage, 418 AD:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It has been decided likewise that if anyone
says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many
mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there
will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live
who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter
into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For
when the Lord says: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,
he shall not enter into the kingdom of God” [John 3:5], what Catholic will
doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a
coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run
into the left [cf. Matt. 25:41,46].</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pope Pius XII, Address to Italian
Midwives:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If what We have said up to now concerns the
protection and care of natural life, much more so must it concern the
supernatural life, which the newly born receives with Baptism. In the
present economy there is no other way to communicate that life to the child
who has not attained the use of reason. Above all, the state of grace is
absolutely necessary at the moment of death. Without it salvation and
supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of
love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply
the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is not open.
. . . so it is easy to understand the great importance of providing for the
baptism of the child deprived of complete reason who finds himself in grave
danger or at death's threshold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fr Brian Harrison, Could Limbo Be 'Abolished'?,
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html">http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It should be clear from the above survey of
relevant Catholic magisterial statements that those who now talk about Limbo
as only ever having been a mere "hypothesis", rather than a doctrine, are
giving a very misleading impression of the state of the question. They are
implying by this that the pre-Vatican II Church traditionally held, or at
least implicitly admitted, that an alternate 'hypothesis' for unbaptized
infants was their attainment of eternal salvation — Heaven. Nothing could be
further from the truth. Limbo for unbaptized infants was indeed a
theological "hypothesis"; but the only approved alternate hypothesis was not
Heaven, but very mild hellfire as well as exclusion from the beatific
vision! In short, while Limbo as distinct from very mild hellfire was a
'hypothetical' destiny for unbaptized infants, their eternal exclusion from
Heaven (with or without any 'pain of sense') — at least after the
proclamation of the Gospel, and apart from the 'baptism of blood' of infants
slaughtered out of hatred for Christ — this was traditional Catholic
doctrine, not a mere hypothesis. No, it was never dogmatically defined. But
the only question is whether the doctrine was infallible by virtue of the
universal and ordinary magisterium, or merely "authentic".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>St. Thomas Aquinas, De malo q. 5. a. 3. ad
4:<BR>"The infants are separated from God perpetually in regard to the loss
of glory, which they do not know, but not in regard to participation in
natural goods, which they do know. . . . That which they have through
nature. . they possess without pain."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Babies go to Limbo or
heaven:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>St. Thomas Aquinas (the quote is compatible
with both heaven and limbo; his actual position was that they go to
limbo):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Children while in the mother's womb have not
yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they
cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at
the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the
action of God, in whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to
receive the grace of sanctification."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>CCC 1261:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>“As regards children who have died without
Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does
in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires
that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which
caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow
us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died
without Baptism”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>CCC 1257:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>“God has bound salvation to the sacrament of
Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 16:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nor is God far distant from those who in
shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men
life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not
know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by
grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through
the dictates of conscience.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pius IX, Quanto conficiamur moerore,
1863:<BR>"God. . . in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows
anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt
of voluntary fault."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Babies go to
heaven:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae (<A
href="http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__P10.HTM">first
version</A>):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would now like to say a special word to women
who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may
have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it
was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not
yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But
do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to
understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done
so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father
of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the
Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is
definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your
child, who is now living in the Lord.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pope
John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae (<A
href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html">second
version</A> after the Limbo issue was apparently pointed out to him):</FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would now like to say a special word to women
who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may
have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it
was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not
yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But
do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to
understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done
so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father
of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the
Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with
sure hope entrust your child.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pope Benedict XVI (as Joseph Cardinal
Ratzinger), The Ratzinger Report, pp. 147-148:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Limbo was never a defined truth of faith.
Personally—and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of
the Congregation—I would abandon it since it was only a theological
hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which
is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of
baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I say
to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the
Kingdom of God” (Jn 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of
“limbo” if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who
proposed “limbo” also said that parents could spare the child limbo by
desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not
be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not
now, nor will it ever be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pope Benedict XVI (as Joseph Cardinal
Ratzinger), God and the World, pp. 401-402:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The question of what it means to say that
baptism is necessary for salvation has become ever more hotly debated in
modern times. The Second Vatican Council said on this point that men who are
seeking for God and who are inwardly striving toward that which constitutes
baptism will also receive salvation. That is to say that a seeking after God
already represents an inward participation in baptism, in the Church, in
Christ. To that extent, the question concerning the necessity of baptism for
salvation seems to have been answered, but the question about children who
could not be baptized because they were aborted then presses upon us that
much more urgently. Earlier ages had devised a teaching that seems to me
rather unenlightened. They said that baptism endows us, by means of
sanctifying grace, with the capacity to gaze upon God. Now, certainly, the
state of original sin, from which we are freed by baptism, consists in a
lack of sanctifying grace. Children who die in this way are indeed without
any personal sin, so they cannot be sent to hell, but, on the other hand,
they lack sanctifying grace and thus the potential for beholding God that
this bestows. They will simply enjoy a state of natural blessedness, in
which they will be happy. This state people called limbo. In the course of
our century, that has gradually come to seem problematic to us. This was one
way in which people sought to justify the necessity of baptizing infants as
early as possible, but the solution is itself questionable. Finally, the
Pope [John Paul II] made a decisive turn in the encyclical Evangelium Vitae,
a change already anticipated by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, when
he expressed the simple hope that God is powerful enough to draw to himself
all those who were unable to receive the sacrament.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lastly:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A blog post by a Catholic apologist at <A
href="http://billcork.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/more-on-limbo/">http://billcork.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/more-on-limbo/</A> -
this is what got me looking, and got me disturbed:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2>This discussion raises a question
that we must put bluntly–is Tradition authoritative for Catholics or not?
When certain Catholic apologists want to argue with Protestants they defend
Tradition; when they can’t support a teaching by citing Scripture, they fall
back on Tradition. They can never quite define what this “Tradition” is, or
where to find it, however. Used in this way, it is a deus ex machina that is
dropped to defend any Catholic teaching that is either not proven from
Scripture or that seems to contradict Scripture.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#008000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2>Regardless of how you might
define “Tradition,” it seems plain that Limbo was taught consistently for
centuries by that Tradition. Now by a wave of the hand it becomes merely a
“hypothesis.”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#008000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2>What about other Traditional
teachings? Can they disappear at the wave of the hand and become mere
“hypotheses”? Why or why not? Is it merely papal authority that makes or
breaks doctrine, that creates it or knocks it down, includes it or excludes
it from Tradition? Is papal authority thus a form of legal
positivism?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#808000>--<BR>Stephen Korsman<BR><A
href="mailto:skorsman@theotokos.co.za"><FONT
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs
for running waters so my soul longs for you, O
God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps
42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
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