<div>Stephen,</div> <div> </div> <div>Thank you for the wonderful and extensive explanation.</div> <div> </div> <div>Dianne<BR><BR><B><I>Stephen Korsman <skorsman@theotokos.co.za></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, there were quiet moments, but the church was a very small one, and very well designed accoustically, even though it was quite a primitive building, being very rural. It was a Latin-rite building; the congregation was mixed religion because there were no Orthodox priests in the area - this was their visiting Catholicos from India. So most could be heard; and the clouds of incense were thick, but didn't mask the view - not quite.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In terms of not hearing what the priest does, the Byzantines are worse - you don't even see the priest during the consecration. I've never been to their liturgies, but there are plenty of bracketed "(in a low voice)" statements throughout the copy of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've put it in my Google Docs - <A href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j</A> ... I have a nice PDF in Greek and English if anyone wants it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regarding the words said by the priest when communion was received, I've done a bit of searching, and can only find the following (on the Melkite Catholic site) - </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2>In early times the words used
by the priest in giving Holy Communion were, for the species of bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and for the species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum Saluti" - "The Blood of Christ, the cup of Salvation" - to which "Amen" was also answered. About the time of Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the form had changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to which the receiver would respond, as before "Amen." With Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find the form, "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve you unto life everlasting."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><A href="http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html">http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff0000 size=2>Corpus Domini nostri Jesu
Christi custodiat animam meam in vitam aeternam. Amen.</FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Tridentine Mass, Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff0000 size=2>Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam. Amen.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most recent form, as far as I can work out, but dates to the 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they intinct, or that this refers to the priest only.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video, which I cannot differentiate from the Tridentine Mass, having never been to either:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite), the communicant says "<FONT color=#0000ff>Amen</FONT>":</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[The Celebrant administers the Body and Blood from the Paten, saying:]<BR>[From the Sacrament of Baptism:<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to thee unto life eternal.</FONT><BR>R. <FONT
color=#0000ff>Amen</FONT>.]<BR>[Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the living and<BR>most high God, be to thee unto life eternal.</FONT><BR>R. <FONT color=#0000ff>Amen</FONT>.]<BR>[The Chalice is administered with the words:<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to thee unto life eternal.</FONT><BR>R. <FONT color=#0000ff>Amen</FONT>.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff0000 size=2>Priest: Corpus Christ<BR>Response: Amen</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date, but suppression of the rite was attempted in 1060.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And most different of all, the text of the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the following:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff00ff size=2>The servant of God (Name) receives the
Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>God bless,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=arthurkelly@yahoo.com href="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">Art Kelly</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Stephen,<BR><BR>Did the celebrant turn
his back to the congregation<BR>and speak in a deliberately low voice so no one could<BR>see or hear what was happening on the altar?<BR><BR>Art<BR><BR>--- Stephen Korsman <<A href="mailto:skorsman@theotokos.co.za">skorsman@theotokos.co.za</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> Hi<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: Dianne Dawson <BR>> To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group <BR>> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org<BR>> newsletter<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> If someone had never been to a Mass (in any<BR>> language) then that one might fly, otherwise it's a<BR>> weak argument. If you were traveling out of the<BR>> country would you avoid going to Mass just because<BR>> you didn't understand every word the priest spoke? <BR>> I doubt it because you are familiar with the format<BR>> and what is
happening and when. Actually, that is<BR>> one of the best reason to have the Mass in Latin. <BR>> There I must agree. I've been to a Novus Ordo Latin<BR>> Mass, which was quite comprehendable even though I<BR>> only had 2 years of school Latin at the time. I've<BR>> been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't understand at<BR>> all, but I knew what was going on. I've even to a<BR>> Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not like ours,<BR>> but Eastern rite, and they have their Catholic<BR>> equivalents. Even there, I could follow, even<BR>> though it was a rite I'd never been to, and in a<BR>> language I'd never heard.<BR>> <BR>> God bless,<BR>> Stephen<BR>> --<BR>> Stephen Korsman<BR>> <A href="mailto:skorsman@theotokos.co.za">skorsman@theotokos.co.za</A><BR>> The Theotokos Website<BR>> A Rural Virologist || RSS feed<BR>> Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed<BR>>
<BR>> IC | XC<BR>> ---------<BR>> NI | KA<BR>> <BR><BR><BR>ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>13524 Brightfield Lane<BR>Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>(703) 904-3763 home<BR>(703) 396-6956 work<BR><A href="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">arthurkelly@yahoo.com</A><BR><A href="mailto:art.kelly@cox.net">art.kelly@cox.net</A><BR><A href="mailto:ArtK135@Netscape.net">ArtK135@Netscape.net</A><BR><BR><BR> <BR>____________________________________________________________________________________<BR>Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.<BR><A href="http://farechase.yahoo.com/">http://farechase.yahoo.com/</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics@gathman.org</A><BR><A
href="http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics">http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><!DSPAM:114899BC57711954290193661></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><DIV>
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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps 42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV><p>
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