<div>Art,</div> <div> </div> <div>No, I'm not going far afield. You are the one stating the reason for using the words "The Body of Christ" is because that is what they used in the early church (I still haven't seen any evidence of what was said before the sixth century. My point is still the same: If you are going to revert back to early times for part of the Mass then you need to do so for all of the Mass. </div> <div> </div> <div>If you have another reason for using the simplified form "The Body of Christ" (e.g. theological reasons, Eschatological reasons, etc.) then I would like to hear them. The current rubrics for the Novus Ordo require the priest to say "The Body of Christ" but the rebrics for the Tridentine Mass call for the, in my opinion much richer, phrase <TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top align=left width="50%"><FONT size=2>Corpus Dómini nostri Jesu Christi
custódiat ánimam tuam in vitam æternam. Amen.<BR></FONT></TD> <TD vAlign=top align=left width="50%"><FONT size=2>May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto life everlasting. Amen.<BR></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></div> <div>I daresay that if you compare the other prayers of the two valid Masses you will find a plethora of depth in the Tridentine Mass that ICEL has stripped out of the Novus Ordo.</div> <div> </div> <div>Nothing can ever take away from the reality of us receiving the TRUE Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. However, just take a look around at people's attitude (mental and physical) and dress during the Novus Ordo and then compare that to the Tridentine. There is none! And that is not going far afield.</div> <div> </div> <div>Dianne<BR><BR><B><I>Art Kelly <arthurkelly@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Dianne,<BR><BR>You are getting far afield.<BR><BR>I stated that the Tridentine Mass discarded the<BR>phrase, "Body of Christ," with each communicant<BR>saying, "Amen."<BR><BR>The current rite of the Mass restored the standard way<BR>it was done by at least the 2nd century.<BR><BR>You asked for proof. Before I could cite the<BR>historical documents, Stephen chimed in. I then asked<BR>if you wanted further evidence from authorative<BR>sources.<BR><BR>If you are now satisfied that what the priest says in<BR>distributing Communion in the current rite of the Mass<BR>is more authentic to early Christianity than the<BR>Tridentine rite, then I do not need to trot out all of<BR>the evidence.<BR><BR>If your point is that the many changes the Tridentine<BR>Rite made in the traditional Mass were for the better,<BR>that is a different issue. <BR><BR>Art<BR><BR>--- Dianne Dawson <RCDIANNE@YAHOO.COM>wrote:<BR><BR>> He also substantiated that at least as
far back as<BR>> the sixth century the words of the priest were not a<BR>> simple "The Body of Christ." So how far back is far<BR>> enough? Why go back to the beginning for parts of<BR>> the Mass and not others. If you take part of the<BR>> Mass back to the earliest times then you need to<BR>> take the whole Mass back. If we do that then<BR>> Communion is not received at EVERY Mass. Also,<BR>> ordinary people can take Communion back to their<BR>> homes to distribute to other people. How far back<BR>> would you purpose going back and are you willing to<BR>> accept ALL of the changes that would entail<BR>> (remember that the Mass would not be in English).<BR>> <BR>> Dianne<BR>> <BR>> Art Kelly <ARTHURKELLY@YAHOO.COM>wrote:<BR>> You will note that Stephen substantiated my<BR>> statement<BR>> that the distribution of Communion in the current<BR>> rite<BR>> of the Mass is authentic to the early Chruch, while<BR>>
the Tridentine rite is NOT:<BR>> <BR>> In early times the words used by the priest in<BR>> giving<BR>> Holy Communion were, for the species of bread,<BR>> "Corpus<BR>> Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the<BR>> receiver<BR>> answered, "Amen."<BR>> <BR>> If you need further proof from other authoratative<BR>> sources, please let me know.<BR>> <BR>> Art<BR>> <BR>> --- Dianne Dawson wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > Stephen,<BR>> > <BR>> > Thank you for the wonderful and extensive<BR>> > explanation.<BR>> > <BR>> > Dianne<BR>> > <BR>> > Stephen Korsman wrote:<BR>> > Hi<BR>> > <BR>> > Well, there were quiet moments, but the church was<BR>> > a very small one, and very well designed<BR>> > accoustically, even though it was quite a<BR>> primitive<BR>> > building, being very rural. It was a Latin-rite<BR>> > building; the congregation was mixed
religion<BR>> > because there were no Orthodox priests in the area<BR>> -<BR>> > this was their visiting Catholicos from India. So<BR>> > most could be heard; and the clouds of incense<BR>> were<BR>> > thick, but didn't mask the view - not quite.<BR>> > <BR>> > In terms of not hearing what the priest does, the<BR>> > Byzantines are worse - you don't even see the<BR>> priest<BR>> > during the consecration. I've never been to their<BR>> > liturgies, but there are plenty of bracketed "(in<BR>> a<BR>> > low voice)" statements throughout the copy of the<BR>> > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've put it<BR>> > in my Google Docs -<BR>> > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j ...<BR>> I<BR>> > have a nice PDF in Greek and English if anyone<BR>> wants<BR>> > it.<BR>> > <BR>> > Regarding the words said by the priest when<BR>> > communion was
received, I've done a bit of<BR>> > searching, and can only find the following (on the<BR>> > Melkite Catholic site) - <BR>> > <BR>> > In early times the words used by the priest in<BR>> > giving Holy Communion were, for the species of<BR>> > bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of Christ" - to<BR>> > which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and for the<BR>> > species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum Saluti"<BR>> -<BR>> > "The Blood of Christ, the cup of Salvation" - to<BR>> > which "Amen" was also answered. About the time of<BR>> > Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the form<BR>> had<BR>> > changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi<BR>> > conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or our Lord<BR>> > Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to which the<BR>> > receiver would respond, as before "Amen." With<BR>> > Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find the<BR>>
form,<BR>> > "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve<BR>> you<BR>> > unto life everlasting."<BR>> > - http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html<BR>> > <BR>> > Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam<BR>> > meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. - Tridentine Mass,<BR>> > Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)<BR>> > - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)<BR>> > - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)<BR>> > - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)<BR>> > <BR>> > Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu Christi<BR>> > custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam. Amen.<BR>> > - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most recent<BR>> > form, as far as I can work out, but dates to the<BR>> > 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they intinct,<BR>> or<BR>> > that this refers to the priest only.)<BR>> > - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)<BR>> > <BR>> > Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video, which
I<BR>> > cannot differentiate from the Tridentine Mass,<BR>> > having never been to either:<BR>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU<BR>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao<BR>> > <BR>> > In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using<BR>> > leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite), the<BR>> > communicant says "Amen":<BR>> > [The Celebrant administers the Body and Blood<BR>> > from the Paten, saying:]<BR>> > [From the Sacrament of Baptism:<BR>> > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be<BR>> > to thee unto life eternal.<BR>> > R. Amen.]<BR>> > [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:<BR>> > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ,<BR>> the<BR>> > Son of the living and<BR>> > most high God, be to thee unto life eternal.<BR>> > R. Amen.]<BR>> > [The Chalice is administered with the words:<BR>> > May the Blood of our Lord
Jesus Christ be to thee<BR>> > unto life eternal.<BR>> > R. Amen.<BR>> > Priest: Corpus Christ<BR>> > Response: Amen<BR>> > - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date, but<BR>> > suppression of the rite was attempted in 1060.)<BR>> > <BR>> > And most different of all, the text of the Divine<BR>> > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the following:<BR>> > The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and<BR>> > Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and<BR>> eternal<BR>> > life.<BR>> > <BR>> > God bless,<BR>> > Stephen<BR>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > From: Art Kelly <BR>> > To: Apologetics Group <BR>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM<BR>> > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org<BR>> > newsletter<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > Stephen,<BR>> > <BR>> > Did the celebrant turn his back to the<BR>>
congregation<BR>> > and speak in a deliberately low voice so no one<BR>> > could<BR>> > see or hear what was happening on the altar?<BR>> > <BR>> > Art<BR>> > <BR>> > --- Stephen Korsman <BR>> > wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> > > Hi<BR>> > > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > > From: Dianne Dawson <BR>> > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group <BR>> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM<BR>> > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From<BR>> > NewAdvent.org<BR>> > > newsletter<BR>> > > <BR>> > > <BR>> > > If someone had never been to a Mass (in any<BR>> > > language) then that one might fly, otherwise<BR>> it's<BR>> > a<BR>> > > weak argument. If you were traveling out of the<BR>> > > country would you avoid going to Mass just<BR>> because<BR>> > > you didn't understand every word the
priest<BR>> spoke?<BR>> > <BR>> > > I doubt it because you are familiar with the<BR>> > format<BR>> > > and what is happening and when. Actually, that<BR>> is<BR>> > > one of the best reason to have the Mass in<BR>> Latin. <BR>> > > There I must agree. I've been to a Novus Ordo<BR>> > Latin<BR>> > > Mass, which was quite comprehendable even though<BR>> I<BR>> > > only had 2 years of school Latin at the time. <BR>> > I've<BR>> > > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't understand<BR>> at<BR>> > > all, but I knew what was going on. I've even to<BR>> a<BR>> > > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not like<BR>> > ours,<BR>> > > but Eastern rite, and they have their Catholic<BR>> > > equivalents. Even there, I could follow, even<BR>> > > though it was a rite I'd never been to, and in a<BR>> > > language I'd never
heard.<BR>> > > <BR>> > > God bless,<BR>> > > Stephen<BR>> > > --<BR>> > > Stephen Korsman<BR>> > > skorsman@theotokos.co.za<BR>> > > The Theotokos Website<BR>> > > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed<BR>> > > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed<BR>> > > <BR>> > > IC | XC<BR>> > > ---------<BR>> > > NI | KA<BR>> > > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>> > 13524 Brightfield Lane<BR>> > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>> > (703) 904-3763 home<BR>> > (703) 396-6956 work<BR>> > arthurkelly@yahoo.com<BR>> > art.kelly@cox.net<BR>> > ArtK135@Netscape.net<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> ><BR>><BR>____________________________________________________________________________________<BR>> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights<BR>> and<BR>> > hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.<BR>> > http://farechase.yahoo.com/<BR>> > _______________________________________________<BR>> > Apologetics mailing list<BR>> > Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>> > http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > Like a deer that longs for running waters so my<BR>> soul<BR>> > longs for you, O God.<BR>> > <BR>> > Ps 42:1<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > ---------------------------------<BR>> > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places<BR>> > on Yahoo! Travel. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>> 13524 Brightfield Lane<BR>> Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>> (703) 904-3763 home<BR>> (703) 396-6956 work<BR>> arthurkelly@yahoo.com<BR>> art.kelly@cox.net<BR>> ArtK135@Netscape.net<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>><BR>____________________________________________________________________________________Ready<BR>> for the edge of your seat? <BR>> Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. <BR>> http://tv.yahoo.com/<BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Apologetics mailing list<BR>> Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>> http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul<BR>> longs for you, O God.<BR>> <BR>> Ps 42:1<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ---------------------------------<BR>> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network<BR>> Research Panel today!<BR><BR><BR>ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>13524 Brightfield Lane<BR>Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>(703) 904-3763 home<BR>(703) 396-6956
work<BR>arthurkelly@yahoo.com<BR>art.kelly@cox.net<BR>ArtK135@Netscape.net<BR><BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________________________________________________<BR>Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. <BR>http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics mailing list<BR>Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR><BR><!DSPAM:11490AC823D791555072813><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><DIV>
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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps 42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV><p>
<hr size=1>Looking for a deal? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47094/*http://farechase.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFicDJoNDllBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwMxMwRzZWMDZ3JvdXBzBHNsawNlbWFpbC1uY20-">Find great prices on flights and hotels</a> with Yahoo! FareChase.