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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This failed the first time, so I've snipped the old
conversations, and added a quote from the CCC, and a few extra
bits.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>Much of what you have written is contradictory
and<BR>self-refuting.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't see it as such.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>To suggest that the Chaldean Catholic Church does not<BR>use the Words of
Institution in their Mass is mind<BR>boggling.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yet that is the trend.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>The Catholic Church took a hard look at the liturgy of<BR>the Assyrian
Church of the East because of the lack of<BR>Words of Institution. Since
there are no Catholic<BR>rites like that--and never have been</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not after the schism, no.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>--it was necessary<BR>to determine if the Assyrian liturgy was valid
before<BR>agreeing to allow Chaldeans to seek out an Assyrian<BR>minister in
extraordinary circumstances. <BR><BR>(Since both of these Christian
denominations are<BR>centered in Iraq, this is not a
hypothetical<BR>situation.)<BR><BR>If the Chaldeans did not have the Words of
Institution<BR>in their Mass, there would not have been a
problem.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It would have been a problem, but it would have
been addressed earlier.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>But the Chaldean Mass and Assyrian liturgy were, and<BR>are, radically
DIFFERENT in regard to the<BR>Consecration.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In that the Assyrians lack the words of institution
in a literal form, as stated by the Vatican.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>Ultimately, the Vatican decided the Words of<BR>Institution-which it said
were INDISPENSABLE-were<BR>contained in the Assyrian liturgy.
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Agreed. But not in a coherent literal form,
as the document states.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>I think the Assyrians may have privately assured the<BR>Vatican that they
almost always use the Words of<BR>Institution.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If that had been the case, the Vatican would not
have made the statement they made.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>Hence, the statement by the Vatican,<BR>"When Chaldean faithful are
participating in an<BR>Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist,
the<BR>Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the<BR>words of the
Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and<BR>Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod
of the Assyrian<BR>Church of the East."<BR><BR>Of course, that Vatican
statement would make no sense<BR>whatsoever if any Chaldean Catholic Masses
lacked the<BR>Words of Institution.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The statement specifies that the Orthodox form
lacks the words in a literal form, and validates that form in spite of that,
because the principles are included in various prayers, which I
quoted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some Catholics have, however, moved back to
the original anaphora, because the form lacking the words of instutition in a
literal form is equally valid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The point is that the anaphora lacking the words of
institution in a literal coherent form is valid, and that is beyond
doubt.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>This is the third time I've provided you a link to the<BR>Chaldean Mass
with the Words of Institution in BOLD<BR>for special emphasis at<BR><A
href="http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html">http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html</A><BR><BR>You
replied that "You also provided a link to the form<BR>which omits the words of
institution."<BR><BR>Actually, in error I provided a link to a version
of<BR>the "Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles, Composed by St.<BR>Adoni and St.
Mari, Teachers of the Easterners" from<BR>the library of the University of
California at Santa<BR>Barbara (UCSB).<BR><BR>I should have provided a link to
the actual liturgy of<BR>the Assyrian Church of the East at<BR><A
href="http://www.cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html">http://www.cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>As you can see, it is different from the Catholic<BR>Chaldean Mass.
And both appear to be different from<BR>the version at UCSB.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yet both of those you quote from the Orthodox side
lack the words of institution in a literal coherent form.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity's<BR>"Guidelines for
Admission to the Eucharist Between the<BR>Chaldean Church and the Assyrian
Church of the East"<BR>never mentions the Epiclesis. No claim was made
that<BR>the Assyrian liturgy was valid because of an<BR>Epiclesis.
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree. I didn't claim that.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>In fact, you cannot produce any Vatican document that<BR>states that an
Epiclesis consecrates the elements.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Diane quoted B16 in what I interpreted as being a
more spiritual insight into the matter. But it seems as if there is more
to it. As you note, the CCC does have a more Eastern influence, and that
can be seen in the following statement:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>CCC 1333 - At the heart of the Eucharistic
celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the
invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The CCC states that it is the words of institution
as well as the epiclesis that effect the Real Presence. <U>What</U>
happens is dogma. <U>When</U> it happens has not formally been
defined. The West is moving East; scholasticism is not the only way to
define truth.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>As<BR>I indicated in my two previous messages, the Catechism<BR>of the
Catholic Church makes it incontrovertible that<BR>the Words of Institution are
what consecrates. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, that is the Western understanding, but the
Eastern understanding exists side by side with it in the Catholic Church and has
not been rejected.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>It is true that the Epiclesis is a nice prayer and has<BR>long been used
in many liturgical functions. The 1913<BR>Catholic Encyclopedia
states:<BR><BR>It should be noticed that the Epiclesis for the
Holy<BR>Eucharist is only one of many such forms. In other<BR>sacraments and
blessings similar prayers were used, to<BR>ask God to send His Holy Spirit to
sanctify the<BR>matter. There was an Epiclesis for the water of<BR>baptism.
Tertullian (De bapt., iv), Optatus of Mileve<BR>("De schism. Don., III, ii,
VI, iii, in "Corp. Script.<BR>eccl. Latin.", vol. XXVI, 69, 148, 149), St.
Jerome<BR>(Contra Lucif., vi, vii), St. Augustine (De bapt., V,<BR>xx, xxvii),
in the West; and St. Basil (De Spir.<BR>Sancto, xv, 35), St. Gregory of Nyssa
(Orat. cat.<BR>magn. xxxiii), and St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Cat. iii,<BR>3), in
the East, refer to it. In Egypt especially,<BR>Epiclesis were used to bless
wine, oil, milk, etc. In<BR>all these cases (including that of the Holy
Eucharist)<BR>the idea of invoking the Holy Ghost to sanctify is a<BR>natural
one derived from Scripture (Joel 2:32; Acts<BR>2:21: ho an epikalesetai to
onoma kyriou . . .; cf.<BR>Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2).<BR><BR>You did
make reference several times in your message<BR>to "the PCPCU document," but
as far as I can<BR>determine, you never identified this document.
Please<BR>provide the exact name, date, and author of it.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't understand. I mentioned the document,
and then you actually cited it several times. It can be found at <A
href="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html">http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The PCPCU document "Admission to the Eucharist in
Situations of Pastoral Necessity - Provision between the Chaldean Church and the
Assyrian Church of the East" can be found on the same page, and elaborates
further.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>Incredibly, you also claim the dogmas of the Catholic<BR>Church do not
apply to Eastern Rite Catholics,</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No ... the explanations of Catholic dogmas given by
the West do not apply to the East, who have different explanations, but share
the same faith.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>because<BR>"The Treaty of Brest remains in force, which decrees<BR>unity
between Western and Byzantine Catholics without<BR>concern over the
differences regarding purgatory."<BR><BR>I've never heard of the Treaty of
Brest, but I'll look<BR>into it. However, treaties are usually
between<BR>governments. I've never heard of one making a<BR>theological
declaration. If this one did, then it was<BR>abrogated many centuries
ago.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No, it remains in effect. <A
href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15130a.htm">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15130a.htm</A>.
All the Byzantines were dispensed from the Western concept of purgatory; they
continue their own understanding today.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>One more time, here's what Pope John Paul II wrote<BR>about the
universal, binding teachings in the<BR>Catechism on the WHOLE church of ALL
rites:<BR><BR>"Following the renewal of the Liturgy and the
new<BR>codification of the canon law of the Latin Church AND<BR>that of the
Oriental Catholic Churches, this catechism<BR>will make a very important
contribution to that work<BR>of renewing the WHOLE life of the Church, as
desired<BR>and begun by the Second Vatican Council.<BR><BR>"It can be said
that this Catechism is the result of<BR>the collaboration of the WHOLE
Episcopate of the<BR>Catholic Church, who generously accepted my
invitation<BR>to share responsibility for an enterprise which<BR>directly
concerns the life of the Church. This<BR>response elicits in me a deep feeling
of joy, because<BR>the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what<BR>could
be called the "symphony" of the faith. The<BR>achievement of this Catechism
thus reflects the<BR>collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies
to<BR>the Church's CATHOLICITY.<BR><BR>"The Catechism of the Catholic
Church.is a statement<BR>of the Church's faith and of CATHOLIC
doctrine,<BR>attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the<BR>Apostolic
Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. <BR><BR>"I DECLARE it to be a SURE
NORM for teaching the faith<BR>and thus a valid and legitimate instrument
for<BR>ecclesial COMMUNION. May it serve the renewal to<BR>which the
Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of<BR>God, the Body of Christ, on her
pilgrimage to the<BR>undiminished light of the Kingdom!<BR><BR>"The approval
and publication of the Catechism of the<BR>Catholic Church represent a service
which the<BR>Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy<BR>Catholic
Church, to ALL the particular Churches in<BR>peace and COMMUNION with the
Apostolic See: the<BR>service, that is, of supporting and confirming
the<BR>faith of ALL the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32),<BR>as well as of
strengthening the bonds of UNITY in the<BR>SAME apostolic faith.
<BR><BR>"Therefore, I ask ALL the Church's Pastors and the<BR>Christian
faithful to receive this catechism in a<BR>spirit of COMMUNION and to use it
ASSIDUOUSLY in<BR>fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith
and<BR>calling people to the Gospel life. <BR><BR>"This catechism is given to
them that it may be a SURE<BR>and AUTHENTIC reference text for teaching
catholic<BR>DOCTRINE and particularly for preparing local<BR>catechisms. It is
also offered to ALL the faithful who<BR>wish to deepen their knowledge of the
unfathomable<BR>riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to<BR>support
ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy<BR>desire for the unity of all
Christians, showing<BR>carefully the content and wondrous harmony of
the<BR>CATHOLIC faith. <BR><BR>"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly,
is<BR>offered to every individual who asks us to give an<BR>account of the
hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and<BR>who wants to KNOW what the Catholic
Church BELIEVES."</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I stated before that I do not disagree with
that.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>This INCLUDES Purgatory, original sin, the Immaculate<BR>Conception,
transubstantiation, the primacy of the<BR>Bishop of Rome, and the Words of
Institution.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All of the above, with the exception of papal
primacy and for some, transubstantiation, are not explained in Eastern terms by
the West, and therefore the Eastern Catholics do not use our definitions, but
still share the same faith. For instance, they have no concept of a stain
of sin on the soul, and therefore a definition of the Immaculate Conception that
includes such a description is meaningless to them. To them, Mary was free
from sin, but not from its effects - like us, she did not share in the guilt of
Adam's sin, but she still died, which is the effect of Adam's sin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The decree is expressed in terms of the absence
[negative declaration] of original sin as understood by the West who formulated
the definition, whereas the East expresses their view in a positive declaration
about purity and sinlessness. But, since both share the same faith, how it is
defined is not considered important. Mary was never considered to have the guilt
of Adam's sin (i.e. West: she didn't have original sin; East: no such concept),
but she did die (West: being human; East: the effect of original sin = death.)
(The West considers belief in her death to be optional, the East not.) So Mary
never sinned, she never had the guilt of Adam's sin - both sides agree ... but
express it differently, and at times in ways that may appear to be
contradictory, because the two sides mean two competely different things and
talk past each other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"In fact, the negative formulation of the Marian
privilege, which resulted from the earlier controversies about original sin that
arose in the West, must always be complemented by the positive expression of
Mary's holiness more explicitly stressed in the Eastern tradition." (Pope John
Paul II, General Audience June 12, 1996)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Instead of Purgatory, the Byzantines have a
teaching of Final Deification not found in the West, but the two exist side by
side in the same Church as true expressions of the same faith.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The gap between East and West is a huge one, but if
you dig deep enough - as the recent popes have done - you find that they share
the same faith, but explain it differently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"All in the Church must preserve unity in
essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a
proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline,
in-their different liturgical rites, and <U>even in their theological
elaborations of revealed truth</U>," - Unitatis redintegratio 4</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"What has just been said about the lawful variety
that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in
theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West
have followed different methods, and have developed differently their
understanding and confession of God's truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if
from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some
aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better
advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be
considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the
authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must
recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture,
and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They
derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the
works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they
promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full
vision of Christian truth," - Unitatis redintegratio 17</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>God bless,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
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