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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A few points before I paste the latest newsletter
from Karl Keating, which gives me hope.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>14 Sept is the date for the implementation of the
Motu Proprio. Although some have been broadcast - I assume already
existing sites (which are excempt from the Easter Triduum limitation in the Motu
Proprio.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't think Art is rejecting the Tridentine Mass
- I think he's just stating a preference, which is perfectly acceptable.
In fact, I haven't seen him explicitly state a preference, but rather just give
valid comparisons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Tridentine liturgy is one of few that limits
communion to one kind - most Easterners use intinction, either by the priest's
hand or via a spoon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Communion by both species apparently has the
tendency, in the West, to lead to decreased belief in the Real Presence, which
is apparently why it was limited in the first place - to enforce the concept
that one is the complete Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of
Christ. I don't know the detailed evidence; I've just seen it cited by
Karl Keating, James Akin, IIRC.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here's the latest from Karl Keating:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>September 4, 2007<BR><BR>TOPIC:<BR><BR>A NON-DEBATE ON THE LATIN
MASS<BR><BR>Dear Friend of Catholic Answers:<BR><BR>Regarding yesterday: Does it
seem odd only to me that a day on which Americans stay home and take it easy is
titled with the verb "labor"? <BR><BR>Maybe the name was thought up by the same
guy who decided that "parkway" is where you drive and "driveway" is where you
park.<BR><BR>THE OLD MASS: CON AND CON <BR><BR>I'll start with the admission
that I like a good debate. In fact, there was a time, years ago, when I used to
engage in public debates with some regularity. Though I got away from being a
participant, I still enjoy being an observer, whether the debate is in a public
hall or in print.<BR><BR>When I first learned that "The Tidings," the newspaper
of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, was printing an exchange between two priests
on the Tridentine Mass, I said to myself, "Well, now we'll see an interesting
set-to." <BR><BR>When I further learned that one priest was youngish (ordained
in 1986) and the other not so much so (ordained in 1963), I figured that the
older priest would grouse about the old Mass while the younger would extol its
benefits. <BR><BR>I should have known better. <BR><BR>The first little essay was
by the younger priest, Peter J. Daly. He begins by saying that the next parish
over has been celebrating the old Mass for 15 years, and "Almost nobody comes."
The attendance is about 30 people, even though this "is the only Latin Mass for
at least 40 miles around in an area that encompasses more than 20
parishes."<BR><BR>Daly then says that most of the attendees are old, that
occasionally-visiting young people do not seem to take an interest in the
Tridentine Mass, and that the priest himself is weary of it. "It means a lot of
work for him. Under the old liturgy the priest did just about everything. The
people who come to the Latin Mass like that part of the tradition just fine.
They don't think they should have to do anything but show up. After all, it is
the priest who says Mass. They are just spectators."<BR><BR>That kind of
condescension fills Daly's essay. At the end, referring to the Pope's motu
proprio, he asks, "Will there be big crowds at the Latin Mass? Will more
parishes start to offer it? I doubt it. ... Almost nobody is pressing for it.
... I think my neighbor's experience will be the experience of the Church. We
can offer it. But almost no one will come."<BR><BR>THE OTHER SIDE, SORT
OF<BR><BR>Hmmm. That was the side of the exchange that I expected to be
supportive, rather than dismissive, of the old Mass. Maybe my expectation was
wrong. Maybe it would be the older priest and not the younger who would take
that side of the debate. <BR><BR>But no. It turned out there was no debate. I
should have known better, since both priests are columnists for the Catholic
News Service. I should have seen that it is antecedently unlikely that
columnists for CNS actually would be in favor of the old Mass. <BR><BR>The
second essay was by Eugene Hemrick. He starts by saying that in antediluvian
times--which is to say the 1960s--he celebrated Mass in Latin and actually liked
it. He and other priests of the era took a lot of time to learn how to celebrate
the Mass correctly. Not only did they have to learn Latin, but they had to learn
a complicated set of rubrics: genuflections, bowings, signs of the cross, and
just-so positioning of the hands. <BR><BR>The problem nowadays, says Hemrick, is
that few priests know Latin or have been trained in the old rubrics. "What
concerns me ... is the manner in which the Tridentine Mass will be celebrated.
... What concerns me is a younger generation that is not Latinized enough to
make the Tridentine Mass truly reverent and meaningful. Most have not endured
the rigors of learning Latin, speaking and studying it. The language and culture
of Cicero and the early Church are foreign to them." Hemrick is afraid that
priests taking up the old Mass for the first time will end up play-acting, and
that's a bad thing.<BR><BR>Yes, it is a bad thing. We wouldn't want priests who
simply mouth the words of the canon, with no idea what those words mean. If you
set a page of Czech before me, I can read the words aloud, but I won't be able
to tell you their proper sense, since I don't know much Czech. We wouldn't want
the equivalent at Mass. <BR><BR>And that is what we're likely to get, suggests
Hemrick, if we have at the altar priests who have not absorbed "the language and
culture of Cicero." Reading between the lines, this means: Better no old Mass
than one celebrated by a priest who isn't sufficiently up on his
classics.<BR><BR>Once I finished reading the two short essays, I realized that
"The Tidings" was accurate in its titling of the exchange: "The Tridentine Mass:
The Views of Two Priests." <BR><BR>I mistakenly had read it as "The Tridentine
Mass: The Views of Two Priests Who Disagree with One Another." In fact, Daly and
Hemrick pretty much agree. The one says it's unlikely that priests will
celebrate the old Mass well. The others says that no one will come anyway. The
result is about the same, at the level of praxis.<BR><BR>The two essays, then,
complement one another, even as they seem, with each passing day, to have less
and less connection with what is happening in the field. <BR><BR>OUT ON THE
HUSTINGS<BR><BR>The problem with Hemrick's argument is that there is no need for
priests to be expert in the classics or even in Latin. I know any number of
priests who celebrate the new Mass in Spanish, even though they hardly can get
through a Spanish homily (which they laboriously write out beforehand) and
cannot at all get through a Spanish conversation. But they celebrate Mass just
fine. They know what is going on, what the words of the Mass mean, and even how
to pronounce them reasonably well. <BR><BR>If that works for one language, why
not for another? <BR><BR>When I was young, the Latin Mass had an Irish lilt to
it, so many of the local priests being Irish. No one seemed to mind (Cicero was
not sitting in the last pew, doing a critique). I think today's priests, if they
are interested in using the old form, will not have any more trouble getting up
to speed with Latin than with some foreign language that is used with the new
Mass. <BR><BR>My own pastor, for example, has been hitting the books and will
attend a course at which priests are instructed not only in proper Latin
pronunciation but in proper rubrics. Such courses are being held around the
country now, but there is a problem: There are waiting lists. There just isn't
enough room to accommodate all the priests, young and not so young, who want to
prepare themselves for September 14, the date the motu proprio takes
effect.<BR><BR>So, on the one hand, events already seem to be proving Hemrick
wrong: There will be plenty of priests who are well enough prepared for
celebrating in Latin, even if they would have trouble scoring well on the
Advanced Placement Exam in that language. <BR><BR>As for Daly, events will
determine whether his prediction is right. Will almost no one attend? That may
be the case in some parts of the country, but what about in your part or
mine? <BR><BR>When we look at the situation five years from now, we might
say that Daly was prescient. We might ... but that's not where I'm placing my
bets.<BR><BR>Until next time,<BR><BR>Karl<BR><BR>********************<BR><BR>If
you have a comment about anything appearing in this E-Letter, please do not hit
your Reply button. Instead, go to Catholic Answers' discussion forums at <A
href="http://forums.catholic.com">http://forums.catholic.com</A>, where you may
post your comment in the forum dedicated to the E-Letter. You will find a thread
devoted to this issue of the E-Letter. Feel free to add your comment in the form
of a reply to that thread.<BR><BR>********************<BR><BR>To subscribe to
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href="mailto:eletter@catholic.com">eletter@catholic.com</A> and write
"SUBSCRIBE" in the subject line or go to <A
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addresses.<BR><BR>********************<BR><BR>To learn more about the Catholic
faith and about Catholic Answers, visit us at <A
href="http://www.catholic.com">http://www.catholic.com</A>.<BR><BR>********************<BR><BR>The
content of this E-Letter is copyright 2007 by Karl Keating.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#808000>--<BR>Stephen Korsman<BR><A
href="mailto:skorsman@theotokos.co.za"><FONT
color=#808000>skorsman@theotokos.co.za</A><BR><A
href="http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism"><FONT color=#808000>The Theotokos
Website</A><BR><A href="http://www.theotokos.co.za/umtata"><FONT color=#808000>A
Rural Virologist</A> || <A
href="http://www.theotokos.co.za/umtata/rss/index_rss2.xml"><FONT
color=#808000>RSS feed</A><BR><FONT color=#808000><A
href="http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/"><FONT color=#808000>Sabbath
Keepers</A> || <A
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color=#808000>RSS feed</A><BR><FONT color=#808000> <BR>IC |
XC<BR>---------<BR>NI |
KA<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcdianne@yahoo.com href="mailto:rcdianne@yahoo.com">Dianne Dawson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Apologetics] Re:Area
priests see little demand for Latin Mass</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Art,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We seem to be right back where this whole discussion started. I
don't understand the point you're trying to make by listing the
differences. Of course there are differences. However, none of
these differences make either Mass valid or invalid, licit or illicit.
They are both valid forms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I disagree with the "less lay participation" part. From the time I
was in first grade I knew all of the altar server/congregation parts - IN
LATIN - and understood what I was saying. My mother made sure of
that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Although I know you were repeating what the Diocese of Richmond said, I
take exception with the phrase "just bread." We both know it's not "just
bread" but the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord. As such it
cannot be divided. Therefore He is no less present when Communion is
distributed under one species as opposed to both. As a matter of fact,
the GIRM is very specific that Communion under both species is NOT to be a
common occurance. There are only four conditions under which Communion
should be distributed under both species.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>And indeed, since no one today
calls into doubt in any way the doctrinal principles on the complete efficacy
of eucharistic Communion under the species of bread alone, the Council thus
gave permission for the reception of Communion under both kinds <STRONG><U>on
some</U></STRONG> (emphasis added) occasions... (CF GIRM art 14)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face="Times New Roman">
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>they should instruct the Christian
faithful that the Catholic faith teaches that Christ, whole and entire, and
the true Sacrament, is received even under only one species, and consequently
that as far as the effects are concerned, those who receive under only one
species are not deprived of any of the grace that is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>necessary for salvation. (CF GIRM
art. 282)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>In addition to those cases given in
the ritual books, Communion under both kinds is permitted for<BR>a. Priests
who are not able to celebrate or concelebrate Mass; <BR>b. The deacon and
others who perform some duty at the Mass; <BR>c. Members of communities at the
conventual Mass or "community" Mass, along with seminarians, and all who are
engaged in a retreat or are taking part in a spiritual or pastoral
gathering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>The Diocesan Bishop may establish
norms for Communion under both kinds for his own diocese, which are also to be
observed in churches of religious and at celebrations with small groups. The
Diocesan Bishop is also given the faculty to permit Communion under both kinds
whenever it may seem appropriate to the priest to whom, as its own shepherd, a
community has been entrusted, provided that the faithful have been well
instructed and there is no danger of profanation of the Sacrament or of the
rite's becoming difficult because of the large number of participants or some
other reason.<BR><BR>In all that pertains to Communion under both kinds, the
<I>Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion under Both Kinds
in the Dioceses of the United States of America</I> are to be followed (see
nos. 27-54). (CF GIRM art. 283)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=3>As far as the use of Latin in the Mass goes,
the GIRM also provides for that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>Since faithful from different
countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how
to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin,
especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler
melodies.</FONT></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#0000ff
size=3>51 (art 41)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#0000ff
size=3></FONT></FONT> </DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff size=3>
<DIV align=left>Since <STRONG><U>no Catholic would now deny the lawfulness and
efficacy of a sacred rite celebrated in Latin</U></STRONG> <FONT
color=#000000>(emphasis added)</FONT>,... (GIRM art. 12)</DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV align=left> </DIV>
<DIV align=left>Dianne</DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV></FONT><BR><BR><B><I>Art Kelly <arthurkelly@yahoo.com></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Did
you see what the Diocese of Richmond said were the<BR>differences between
the current rite of the Mass and<BR>the Tridentine?<BR><BR>(The Richmond
Diocese has a reputation for<BR>liberalism.)<BR><BR>Old-style Latin
Mass<BR><BR>Some differences in the 16th century Tridentine Mass:<BR><BR>The
rite is entirely in Latin. <BR>The priest faces the altar and has his back
to the<BR>congregation. <BR>There is less lay participation. <BR>Just bread
is used in Communion, instead of bread and<BR>wine.<BR>Source: The Catholic
Diocese of Richmond<BR><BR>--- Dianne Dawson
<RCDIANNE@YAHOO.COM>wrote:<BR><BR>> I'm not surprised at this. <BR>>
1) The Motu Proprio is still fairly new. <BR>> 2) It doesn't actually
take effect until Oct. 1<BR>> (?).<BR>> 3) People who prefer the Latin
Mass have been<BR>> shunned and denigrated by their priests for so
long<BR>> that a lot of people are still reluctant to ask for<BR>>
it.<BR>> <BR>> The recent discussion in this forum is a good<BR>>
example of what many people experience. Both sides<BR>> of the "Latin
Mass" debate make good points. <BR>> However, I don't understand why
there is such a knee<BR>> jerk reaction whenever the Latin Mass is
mentioned. <BR>> If it was good enough for the universal Church
for<BR>> hundreds and hundreds of years, why is it all of a<BR>>
sudden totally wrong? (this is a rhetorical<BR>> question)<BR>>
<BR>> Personally, sometimes my soul needs to jump and<BR>> shout to a
good ol' gospel-style Mass, sometimes the<BR>> Novus Ordo, and sometimes
the quiet, reverent, and<BR>> mystical Tridentine Mass.<BR>> <BR>>
Dianne<BR>> <BR>> Art Kelly <ARTHURKELLY@YAHOO.COM>wrote:<BR>> Area
priests see little demand for Latin Mass<BR>> Church leaders likely would
need special training to<BR>> perform the old-style ceremony.<BR>> By
Pamela J. Podger<BR>> <BR>> Several Roman Catholic priests in
Southwest Virginia<BR>> are thankful demand for the old-style Latin
Mass<BR>> hasn't emerged here because they are already<BR>>
stretched<BR>> thin trying to serve rural parishes.<BR>> <BR>> The
full article is at<BR>>
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-130387<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>> 13524
Brightfield Lane<BR>> Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>> (703) 904-3763
home<BR>> (703) 396-6956 work<BR>> arthurkelly@yahoo.com<BR>>
art.kelly@cox.net<BR>> ArtK135@Netscape.net<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>><BR>____________________________________________________________________________________Ready<BR>>
for the edge of your seat? <BR>> Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo!
TV. <BR>> http://tv.yahoo.com/<BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Apologetics mailing
list<BR>> Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>>
http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Like a deer that longs for running
waters so my soul<BR>> longs for you, O God.<BR>> <BR>> Ps
42:1<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
---------------------------------<BR>> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your
life? Nope! -<BR>> their life, your story.<BR>> Play Sims Stories at
Yahoo! Games. <BR><BR><BR>ART KELLY, ATM-S<BR>13524 Brightfield
Lane<BR>Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360<BR>(703) 904-3763 home<BR>(703)
396-6956
work<BR>arthurkelly@yahoo.com<BR>art.kelly@cox.net<BR>ArtK135@Netscape.net<BR><BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________________________________________________<BR>Need
a vacation? Get great deals<BR>to amazing places on Yahoo!
Travel.<BR>http://travel.yahoo.com/<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics
mailing
list<BR>Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR><BR><!DSPAM:114D3D0704413508471593612><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs
for running waters so my soul longs for you, O
God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps
42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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