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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>1) sin will have been cleansed (100% sanctification) in heaven<BR>2) sin
has temporal consequences (punishment)<BR><BR>Both of which protestants agree
with.</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I prefer changing those propositions to the
following, with the numbering corresponding to your numbering:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2a) Sin has temporal consequences
(discipline)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2b) Discipline is one of the means by which
sanctification occurs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1) Sanctification will be complete by the time we
reach heaven</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Protestants, for the most part, tend to agree with
all of them, except that some (possibly just to disagree) I've discussed it with
allow for growth after death in heaven [i.e. a continued growth going on
forever.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When all this is linked to purgatory, the
disagreements are usually as follows:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- God disciplines nobody [easily silenced from the
NT]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- Sanctification will be complete by the time we
die</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- Any lessons left unlearned will be
instantaneously made up for with no process involved - what is lacking will be
perfected by God without our involvement</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Further discussions around our lack of involvement
in the last point usually end up going nowhere; since purgatory may be an
instantaneous event, there is no problem with the amount of "time" it takes, but
that then divides them into 2 groups:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Jesus died for our sins and we don't have to be
punished [i.e. ignoring everything discussed thus far]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. No but yeah but no but ... where does it say we
must worship Mary in the Bible [i.e. change to an easier topic]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would not advise giving up on this method.
It does plant very strong seeds in their minds. Those who throw it out the
window, in the end, are really no more heretics after they hear the logic than
before - they've just added another item to their list. Even they may just
take much longer than your conversation to comprehend what they've been told -
in the beginning, strong gut reactions are not uncommon. I've heard back
from quite rabid Adventists after utterly failed debates, and a few years later
what I said started making sense, do to time and other factors, and they changed
on a few issues, left Adventism, lost much of their anti-Catholic-ness ... maybe
one day they'll become Catholic too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When someone is confronted with a truth that they
can't deal with, the reaction can be strong. Denial - sometimes very
pronounced - is one of the first reactions. But any form of logic or
reasoning or list of verses from the Bible can lead to denial. So this
attempt of yours didn't backfire; it just wasn't an instant cure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>God bless,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=stuart@gathman.org href="mailto:stuart@gathman.org">Stuart D.
Gathman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">apologetics@gathman.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 31, 2008 4:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] Stealth
apologetics backfires</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I've turned someone into a heretic. I separated claims
*about*<BR>purgatory (prayers for the dead - which Protestants would
reject)<BR>from the definition of purgatory itself, which I reduced to
two<BR>propositions:<BR><BR>1) sin will have been cleansed (100%
sanctification) in heaven<BR>2) sin has temporal consequences
(punishment)<BR><BR>Both of which protestants agree with.<BR><BR>Wouldn't you
know it, once associated with "purgatory", DavidJ immediately<BR>begain
attacking those propositions as "unscriptural" and has now
announced<BR>that<BR><BR>1) all true Christians will be 100% sanctified
*before* death<BR>2) that God never punishes true Christians for their
sin<BR><BR>and anything to the contrary is unscriptural, based on what is
apparently his<BR>highest priority presupposition - that all Roman Catholic
doctrines are<BR>unscriptural. To top it off, I then got all sarcastic
and said:<BR><BR> RE: Papal Infallibility or Papal
Inerrancy?<BR><BR> CustomDesigned Wrote:<BR>
......scriptural authority is irrelevant because your problem is with
basic<BR> logic .....<BR><BR> DavidJ
Wrote:<BR> Clearly you have identified the huge chasm between
yourself; a<BR> Roman Catholic, and Bible Believing born again
Christians like myself, to whom<BR> scriptural authority is
absolute and final. Jesus confirmed this when He said,<BR>
"Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." (John.
17:17)<BR><BR> CustomDesigned Wrote:<BR> You are
right. I repent of using logic and reason, and will use
only<BR> Scripture - throwing logic and reason to the
wind.<BR><BR>So I've turned a previously basically orthdox (if unreasonable)
guy into a<BR>raving heretic by playing bait and switch with purgatory.
I guess I should<BR>have been forewarned by his claim that "*all* Roman
Catholic doctrines are<BR>unscriptural", which would include even those he
agrees with. A highly <BR>unstable logical state.<BR><BR>And while I was
being sarcastic with the "only Scripture and no reason",<BR>I now see that
that is exactly what is required in a case like DavidJ.<BR>It was clear that
he could not use logic, and attempting to force him to do <BR>so was
wrong. I should have just quoted some appropriate scripture and <BR>left
it at that.<BR><BR>Just a warning for other would be apologists. It is
easy to do more<BR>harm that good.<BR><BR>-- <BR>
Stuart D. Gathman <<A
href="mailto:stuart@bmsi.com">stuart@bmsi.com</A>><BR>Business Management
Systems Inc. Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154<BR>"Confutatis
maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for<BR>a Microsoft
sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?"
commercial.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics
mailing list<BR><A
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