<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Dennis makes a good point as well. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In combat (I spent 18 monts in Vietnam with the 101st Airborne Division), some soldiers are trained to be snipers. Whether they are "taking out" a guard at an ammo dump or sitting in a tree along the Ho Chi Minh Trail looking for North Vietnames patrols, sometimes killing in war is premeditated too.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Again, I'll let the theologians sort it out.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I understand the concept of a just war, but frequently (perhaps ALL the time), the soldiers on BOTH sides believe they are fighting a just war. Now and in centuries past, Catholic chaplains have served in combat in support of troops fighting opposing troops who were ALSO ministered to by THEIR own Catholic chaplains.<BR><BR><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>Art</FONT></STRONG></DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/1/09, Dennis Orr <I><dennisorr2@cox.net></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Dennis Orr <dennisorr2@cox.net><BR>Subject: RE: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR>To: "'Dianne Dawson'" <rcdianne@yahoo.com>, "'Stephen Korsman'" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za>, "'Apologetics Group'" <apologetics@gathman.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 10:36 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv650840182>
<STYLE type=text/css>#yiv650840182 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
</STYLE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Diane;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think that you need to give more thought to the military issues that require lethal force to resolve. Abraham killed, but he trained 300 men to be soldiers, and they also killed. David killed both in war and for personal reasons. War was justified by God, personal murder was indicted and punished!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>See my comments, in parenthesis,in the attachment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dennis Orr</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> apologetics-bounces@gathman.org [mailto:apologetics-bounces@gathman.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dianne Dawson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2009 4:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Stephen Korsman; Apologetics Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Stephen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You pose some very interesting scenarios. This is the way I understand it from various priests and theologians:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you inadvertantly kill someone in defense of yourself or another then it is not immoral. In an emergency you certainly are not going to have time to think thing out. However, if you have the time to discern then you are morally obligated not to <U>intentionally</U> kill someone. Like I said, sometimes you don't have time to think about what you are doing and sometimes you have no choice. Either way, your <U>intent</U> is defense - not murder. Yes, a soldier is not responsible for killing an enemy because he doesn't premeditatively kill.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let's take a terminal cancer patient. The patient is not obligated to endure excrutiating pain just to avoid the possibility of death that comes from high dosages. Neither is the doctor obligated to withhold pain relieving medication. The INTENT is to relieve pain - NOT cause death. However, at the end of the disease it takes a great deal of medication to control the pain and that dosage may be the cause of the patient's death. Neither the doctor nor the patient would have any culpability in the death.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What about a woman who is pregnant and is diagnosed with cancer. Is she required to refuse chemotherapy because that treatment might terminate the pregnancy? No. Because it is not her INTENT to kill her baby.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then there's the mother who is having problems during labor. The husband is told by the doctor that he can either save the mother or the baby but not both. Again, there is no intent on anyone's part to deliberately cause the death of either mom or baby. It is simply an unavoidable result.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To deliberately, with malice and aforethought, stalk and kill someone - that is immoral.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dianne<BR> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps 42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Stephen Korsman <skorsman@theotokos.co.za><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Apologetics Group <apologetics@gathman.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 1, 2009 3:43:07 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Before I start out, I want to say that I am opposed to the killing of abortionists. I believe the death sentence is okay under certain circumstances, but can't imagine when it would be better than more humane methods. However, seeing our country's prisons, and the gangs there, it's a breeding ground for something worse than what goes in. And the same applies to the USA, if Prison Break is anything to go by.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I need an answer to is this: when is killing in the defence of another person's life immoral, and when it is not immoral?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If someone walks up to you with a knife and is about to stab you, and you whack them on the head with a brick and they die, that's fine. A similar defence of someone else is fine too. Unfortunate, but not immoral.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If a sniper took out a soldier just before that soldier could kill an innocent woman, is that okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If a sniper had taken out Hitler before he could do the damage he did, would that have been okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When can a 20 year old soldier morally kill another 20 year old soldier, assuming we have a valid scenario of a just war? Does the "military" status of the killed soldier who was forcibly conscripted by his government make it okay to kill him? Does he have less of a right to life than a civilian?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Two soldiers on opposite sides in a just war shoot at the same time and both die. Which one goes to hell? Or were they just "following orders"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If someone is arming a nuclear missile, is it okay to shoot him dead before he can press the button? Is it okay to bomb his building? Is it okay to leak nerve gas into his building? Is it okay to activate a lethal device around his neck that was designed to enable his death should he do something wrong?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bye,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=arthurkelly@yahoo.com href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurkelly@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">Art Kelly</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=apologetics@gathman.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> ; <A title=arochaallen@juno.com href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arochaallen@juno.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:arochaallen@juno.com">Michele Allen</A> ; <A title=rnclife@swbell.net href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rnclife@swbell.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:rnclife@swbell.net">Colleen Parro</A> ; <A title=mail@priestsforlife.org href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mail@priestsforlife.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:mail@priestsforlife.org">Father Pavone</A> ; <A title=darbyfitzpatrick@att.net href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=darbyfitzpatrick@att.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:darbyfitzpatrick@att.net">Darby Fitzpatrick</A> ; <A title=jmurf80@bellsouth.net href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jmurf80@bellsouth.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:jmurf80@bellsouth.net">Jim Murphy</A> ; <A title=wcollins@netins.net href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wcollins@netins.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:wcollins@netins.net">Ward Collins</A> ; <A title=info@lifeissues.org href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@lifeissues.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:info@lifeissues.org">info@lifeissues.org</A> ; <A title=daveandrusko@gmail.com href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=daveandrusko@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:daveandrusko@gmail.com">daveandrusko@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2009 1:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>"All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Gospel of St. Matthew 26:52, KJV)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tiller was one of the very few doctors who practiced late-term abortions. As horrible as Tiller's actions were, it is unthinkable for a pro-life person to engage in murder. How could someone be so self-contradictory? (As this is written, a suspect is in custody, but his identity has not been released.)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>As shocking as this killing was, it was even more so that it occurred at a church, where Tiller was serving as an usher. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What was the church, I wondered. What kind of church would want someone like Tiller as a member, much less allow him to serve as an usher?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The church is the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas, which is part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I went to their website and found this statement: "Our jobs do not define us."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely that statement was written with Tiller in mind. Certainly our jobs are NOT the ONLY thing that defines us. But how we live our lives in EVERYTHING we do--including our job--does, in fact, define us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As a member of the Reformation Lutheran Church, what was Tiller's theology? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Did he believe that he was "saved" because he made a one-time altar call that accepted Jesus as his Lord and personal savior? Or did he believe that his charitable works for the poor would "earn" his right to heaven, despite his continual killing of unborn children? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Was he able to compartmentalize his religious beliefs from his occupation? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And what about the Reformation Lutheran Church? Did they "look the other way" and pretend that what Tiller did during the week did not matter on Sunday morning? Or did this church embrace abortions, including late-term abortions, as a positive good?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely the abortion supporters will try to blame all pro-lifers for this killing, probably with the help of a large portion of the news media. To counteract that, we should all speak out against the killing of anyone. (I oppose the death penalty under almost all circumstances.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But while strongly deploring this murder, I think we can publicly ask the Reformation Lutheran Church and the ELCA what Tiller was doing there serving as an usher. He had NOT repented of his sins. Tiller was going full speed ahead in performing unlimited abortions on demand up to the moment of birth.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How can that be reconciled with ANY form of Christianity?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>Art</FONT></STRONG></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics mailing list<BR>Apologetics@gathman.org<BR>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2148 - Release Date: 06/01/09 06:09:00<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics mailing list<BR><A href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Apologetics@gathman.org" ymailto="mailto:Apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics@gathman.org</A><BR><A href="http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics" target=_blank>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>