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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Diane;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I think that you need to give more thought to the military
issues that require lethal force to resolve. Abraham killed, but he trained 300
men to be soldiers, and they also killed. David killed both in war and for
personal reasons. War was justified by God, personal murder was indicted and
punished!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>See my comments, in parenthesis,in the
attachment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=951152802-02062009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Dennis Orr</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
apologetics-bounces@gathman.org [mailto:apologetics-bounces@gathman.org] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Dianne Dawson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2009 4:27
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Stephen Korsman; Apologetics Group<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Stephen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You pose some very interesting scenarios. This is the way I
understand it from various priests and theologians:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you inadvertantly kill someone in defense of yourself or another then it
is not immoral. In an emergency you certainly are not going to
have time to think thing out. However, if you have the time to discern
then you are morally obligated not to <U>intentionally</U> kill
someone. Like I said, sometimes you don't have time to think about what
you are doing and sometimes you have no choice. Either way,
your <U>intent</U> is defense - not murder. Yes, a soldier is not
responsible for killing an enemy because he doesn't premeditatively
kill.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let's take a terminal cancer patient. The patient is not obligated to
endure excrutiating pain just to avoid the possibility of death that comes from
high dosages. Neither is the doctor obligated to withhold pain relieving
medication. The INTENT is to relieve pain - NOT cause death.
However, at the end of the disease it takes a great deal of medication to
control the pain and that dosage may be the cause of the patient's death.
Neither the doctor nor the patient would have any culpability in the
death.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What about a woman who is pregnant and is diagnosed with cancer. Is
she required to refuse chemotherapy because that treatment might terminate the
pregnancy? No. Because it is not her INTENT to kill her baby.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then there's the mother who is having problems during labor. The
husband is told by the doctor that he can either save the mother or the baby but
not both. Again, there is no intent on anyone's part to deliberately
cause the death of either mom or baby. It is simply an unavoidable
result.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To deliberately, with malice and aforethought, stalk and kill someone
- that is immoral.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dianne<BR> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#0000bf face="Comic Sans MS">Like a deer that longs
for running waters so my soul longs for you, O
God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps
42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#0000bf size=1
face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=#0000bf size=1
face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Stephen Korsman
<skorsman@theotokos.co.za><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Apologetics Group
<apologetics@gathman.org><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 1, 2009 3:43:07
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Apologetics]
Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Before I start out, I want to say that I am opposed
to the killing of abortionists. I believe the death sentence is okay under
certain circumstances, but can't imagine when it would be better than more
humane methods. However, seeing our country's prisons, and the gangs
there, it's a breeding ground for something worse than what goes in. And
the same applies to the USA, if Prison Break is anything to go by.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>What I need an answer to is this: when is killing
in the defence of another person's life immoral, and when it is not
immoral?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If someone walks up to you with a knife and is
about to stab you, and you whack them on the head with a brick and they die,
that's fine. A similar defence of someone else is fine too.
Unfortunate, but not immoral.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If a sniper took out a soldier just before that
soldier could kill an innocent woman, is that okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If a sniper had taken out Hitler before he could do
the damage he did, would that have been okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>When can a 20 year old soldier morally kill another
20 year old soldier, assuming we have a valid scenario of a just war? Does
the "military" status of the killed soldier who was forcibly conscripted by his
government make it okay to kill him? Does he have less of a right to life
than a civilian?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Two soldiers on opposite sides in a just war shoot
at the same time and both die. Which one goes to hell? Or were they
just "following orders"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If someone is arming a nuclear missile, is it okay
to shoot him dead before he can press the button? Is it okay to bomb his
building? Is it okay to leak nerve gas into his building? Is it okay
to activate a lethal device around his neck that was designed to enable his
death should he do something wrong?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bye,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=arthurkelly@yahoo.com href="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">Art Kelly</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> ; <A
title=arochaallen@juno.com href="mailto:arochaallen@juno.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:arochaallen@juno.com">Michele Allen</A> ; <A
title=rnclife@swbell.net href="mailto:rnclife@swbell.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:rnclife@swbell.net">Colleen Parro</A> ; <A
title=mail@priestsforlife.org href="mailto:mail@priestsforlife.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mail@priestsforlife.org">Father
Pavone</A> ; <A title=darbyfitzpatrick@att.net
href="mailto:darbyfitzpatrick@att.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:darbyfitzpatrick@att.net">Darby Fitzpatrick</A> ; <A
title=jmurf80@bellsouth.net href="mailto:jmurf80@bellsouth.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jmurf80@bellsouth.net">Jim Murphy</A> ; <A
title=wcollins@netins.net href="mailto:wcollins@netins.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:wcollins@netins.net">Ward Collins</A> ; <A
title=info@lifeissues.org href="mailto:info@lifeissues.org" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:info@lifeissues.org">info@lifeissues.org</A> ;
<A title=daveandrusko@gmail.com href="mailto:daveandrusko@gmail.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:daveandrusko@gmail.com">daveandrusko@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2009 1:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] Thoughts on the
killing of Dr. George Tiller</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>"All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
(Gospel of St. Matthew 26:52, KJV)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tiller was one of the very few doctors who practiced late-term
abortions. As horrible as Tiller's actions were, it is
unthinkable for a pro-life person to engage in murder. How could
someone be so self-contradictory? (As this is written, a suspect
is in custody, but his identity has not been released.)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>As shocking as this killing was, it was even more so that it
occurred at a church, where Tiller was serving as an usher. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What was the church, I wondered. What kind of church would
want someone like Tiller as a member, much less allow him to
serve as an usher?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The church is the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita,
Kansas, which is part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
(ELCA).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I went to their website and found this statement: "Our
jobs do not define us."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely that statement was written with Tiller in
mind. Certainly our jobs are NOT the ONLY thing that defines
us. But how we live our lives in EVERYTHING we
do--including our job--does, in fact, define us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As a member of the Reformation Lutheran Church, what was Tiller's
theology? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Did he believe that he was "saved" because he made a one-time altar
call that accepted Jesus as his Lord and personal savior? Or
did he believe that his charitable works for the poor would "earn"
his right to heaven, despite his continual killing of unborn
children? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Was he able to compartmentalize his religious beliefs from his
occupation? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And what about the Reformation Lutheran Church? Did they
"look the other way" and pretend that what Tiller did during the
week did not matter on Sunday morning? Or did this church embrace
abortions, including late-term abortions, as a positive good?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely the abortion supporters will try to blame all
pro-lifers for this killing, probably with the help of a
large portion of the news media. To counteract that, we
should all speak out against the killing of anyone. (I oppose the
death penalty under almost all circumstances.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But while strongly deploring this murder, I think we can publicly
ask the Reformation Lutheran Church and the ELCA what Tiller was doing
there serving as an usher. He had NOT repented of his
sins. Tiller was going full speed ahead in performing
unlimited abortions on demand up to the moment of birth.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How can that be reconciled with ANY form of
Christianity?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff
size=3>Art</FONT></STRONG></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics mailing
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