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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We had a similar situation in South Africa, at
least according to stories that go around - people someone's aunt knows.
Someone had their house broken into, they were attacked, and managed to subdue
the intruder. He told them that he would get out of jail fairly quickly,
and he'd come back and kill them for what they've done to him. The man
shot him dead to protect his family. The police considered this to be self
defence and did not press charges. Such threats do need to be taken
seriously.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a problem with the idea that you cannot
morally intend the death of someone to defend your life. Surely if lethal
force is required to achieve that defence, it is morally justified?
Perhaps the death can be argued to be an unintended effect of the degree of
force required, and perhaps shooting someone in the head in self defence if
they're tied up and making threats to come back in the future could be argued
this way: "I intend shooting you in the head in order to hit a part of your
brain that will disable you in such a way that you'll be unable to carry out
those future threats; any death is not my direct intention." Moral
theologians seem to like arguments of that sort, and will carry on to
philosophise about being aware of the chances of your intention working.
But when it comes down to practice, theory behind the desk of a moral theologian
(who may or may not agree with his colleagues in the same passage) is
meaningless.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would also argue that intending to kill someone
in self defence occurs in a situation where fear/anger severely compromises the
ability to make judgements like those made in the offices of moral theologians,
thereby reducing moral culpability. Would that make it less objectively
immoral? If it is objectively immoral, certainly not. Would it be a
mortal sin? If full assent is required, as I have been taught, for a sin
to be a mortal sin, then perhaps not. Would it be necessary to
confess this sin? I would argue that it would be necessary, if not from
the mortal sin point of view, merely from the fact that it's not an unnoticed
sin - it's quite clear to you what you did. The peace and grace of
confession would certainly help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That brings me to two questions:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How, precisely, does a soldier go about killing in
a just war without committing a mortal sin? Or do soldiers have a greater
chance of ending up in hell unless they aim only for the legs, never get
involved in bombing, and never launch a missile? Especially if they die in
battle. Is there a category of killing that can be classified as "killing
in war" as Dennis mentioned, or does such a concept not exist in Christian moral
law?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second - if a person sincerely believes that
foetuses are not real persons and that killing them is not immoral, do
they commit a mortal sin by procuring or performing one? As I have been
taught, mortal sin requires full assent (present), but also knowledge of the
evil of the act (in this scenario it is absent.) Note, I am NOT arguing
that it's an issue we can minimise; I'm trying to get an understanding of the
degree of effect it has on the individual's soul. It's not the objective
evil I am trying to debate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>God bless,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=arthurkelly@yahoo.com href="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">Art
Kelly</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> ; <A
title=jmurf80@bellsouth.net href="mailto:jmurf80@bellsouth.net">Jim Murphy</A>
; <A title=wcollins@netins.net href="mailto:wcollins@netins.net">Ward
Collins</A> ; <A title=arochaallen@juno.com
href="mailto:arochaallen@juno.com">Michele Allen</A> ; <A
title=rnclife@swbell.net href="mailto:rnclife@swbell.net">Colleen Parro</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:50
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] Re: Thoughts on
the killing of Dr. George Tiller</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
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<DIV>Thanks, Dianne.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Both you and Stephen may be interested in article that I will send
you tomorrow about a pharmacist in Oklahoma who is being charge
with killing an armed man trying to rob the pharmacy.<BR><BR>After
wounding the robber with the first shots, the pharmacist then
"finished him off." All of this was captured on video tape by the
pharmacy cameras.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Living in a high-crime urban area, I have wondered what would
happen if I were attacked. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I know there is a definite possibility that I might kill my
attacker. Once the anger and adrenelin got going, I don't think I
could just turn it off once the attacker was disabled. And
who is to say that he might get back up and go after me again, perhaps
more successfully? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Like the pharmacist, I believe I'd probably kill an attacker.
The only death I am not prepared to explain is my own.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As Dianne pointed out, premeditated killing is different from
UN-premeditated killing, especially in self defense.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But where I think Stephen may have been going with some of his
questions is: How is self-defense signficantly different from
killing someone (Tiller) to prevent him from killing more unborn
children?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'll let the theologians answer that question, but I do know that
killing Tiller has the potential to set back the pro-life movement more
than anything the pro-abortion community has done or could do. As a
result of Tiller's murder, pro-abortion legislation may be passed
that would not have otherwise passed and pro-life legislation may be
killed that would have otherwise been enacted into law.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Accordingly, the act of killing Tiller may be indirectly
responsible for the deaths of many unborn children.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The greater good could have been achieved by leaving Tiller
alone.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By the way, a military recruiter was killed today in
Arkansas. Ask the liberals if the anti-war movement as a whole
should be blamed for that murder.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>Art</FONT></STRONG></DIV><BR>---
On <B>Mon, 6/1/09, Dianne Dawson <I><rcdianne@yahoo.com></I></B>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From:
Dianne Dawson <rcdianne@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Apologetics]
Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller<BR>To: "Stephen Korsman"
<skorsman@theotokos.co.za>, "Apologetics Group"
<apologetics@gathman.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 7:27
PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv934132973>
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MARGIN: 0px
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Stephen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You pose some very interesting scenarios. This is the way I
understand it from various priests and theologians:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you inadvertantly kill someone in defense of yourself or
another then it is not immoral. In an emergency you
certainly are not going to have time to think thing out.
However, if you have the time to discern then you are morally
obligated not to <U>intentionally</U> kill someone. Like I said,
sometimes you don't have time to think about what you are doing and
sometimes you have no choice. Either way,
your <U>intent</U> is defense - not murder. Yes, a soldier
is not responsible for killing an enemy because he
doesn't premeditatively kill.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let's take a terminal cancer patient. The patient is not
obligated to endure excrutiating pain just to avoid the possibility of
death that comes from high dosages. Neither is the doctor
obligated to withhold pain relieving medication. The INTENT is
to relieve pain - NOT cause death. However, at the end of the
disease it takes a great deal of medication to control the pain
and that dosage may be the cause of the patient's death. Neither
the doctor nor the patient would have any culpability in the
death.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What about a woman who is pregnant and is diagnosed with
cancer. Is she required to refuse chemotherapy because that
treatment might terminate the pregnancy? No. Because it is
not her INTENT to kill her baby.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then there's the mother who is having problems during
labor. The husband is told by the doctor that he can either save
the mother or the baby but not both. Again, there is no intent
on anyone's part to deliberately cause the death of either mom or
baby. It is simply an unavoidable result.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To deliberately, with malice and aforethought, stalk and
kill someone - that is immoral.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dianne<BR> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf>Like a deer
that longs for running waters so my soul longs for
you, O God.</FONT></EM></DIV></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms">Ps
42:1</FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Stephen Korsman
<skorsman@theotokos.co.za><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Apologetics Group
<apologetics@gathman.org><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 1, 2009
3:43:07 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George
Tiller<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Before I start out, I want to say that I
am opposed to the killing of abortionists. I believe the death
sentence is okay under certain circumstances, but can't imagine when
it would be better than more humane methods. However, seeing our
country's prisons, and the gangs there, it's a breeding ground for
something worse than what goes in. And the same applies to the
USA, if Prison Break is anything to go by.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I need an answer to is this: when is
killing in the defence of another person's life immoral, and when it
is not immoral?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If someone walks up to you with a knife
and is about to stab you, and you whack them on the head with a brick
and they die, that's fine. A similar defence of someone else is
fine too. Unfortunate, but not immoral.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If a sniper took out a soldier just
before that soldier could kill an innocent woman, is that
okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If a sniper had taken out Hitler before
he could do the damage he did, would that have been okay?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When can a 20 year old soldier morally
kill another 20 year old soldier, assuming we have a valid scenario of
a just war? Does the "military" status of the killed soldier who
was forcibly conscripted by his government make it okay to kill
him? Does he have less of a right to life than a
civilian?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Two soldiers on opposite sides in a just
war shoot at the same time and both die. Which one goes to
hell? Or were they just "following orders"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If someone is arming a nuclear missile,
is it okay to shoot him dead before he can press the button? Is
it okay to bomb his building? Is it okay to leak nerve gas into
his building? Is it okay to activate a lethal device around his
neck that was designed to enable his death should he do something
wrong?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bye,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=arthurkelly@yahoo.com
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurkelly@yahoo.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:arthurkelly@yahoo.com">Art Kelly</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=apologetics@gathman.org
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=apologetics@gathman.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:apologetics@gathman.org">Apologetics Group</A> ; <A
title=arochaallen@juno.com
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arochaallen@juno.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:arochaallen@juno.com">Michele Allen</A> ; <A
title=rnclife@swbell.net
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rnclife@swbell.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:rnclife@swbell.net">Colleen Parro</A> ; <A
title=mail@priestsforlife.org
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mail@priestsforlife.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:mail@priestsforlife.org">Father Pavone</A> ; <A
title=darbyfitzpatrick@att.net
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=darbyfitzpatrick@att.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:darbyfitzpatrick@att.net">Darby Fitzpatrick</A> ; <A
title=jmurf80@bellsouth.net
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jmurf80@bellsouth.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:jmurf80@bellsouth.net">Jim Murphy</A> ; <A
title=wcollins@netins.net
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wcollins@netins.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:wcollins@netins.net">Ward
Collins</A> ; <A title=info@lifeissues.org
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@lifeissues.org"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:info@lifeissues.org">info@lifeissues.org</A> ; <A
title=daveandrusko@gmail.com
href="http://us.mc05g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=daveandrusko@gmail.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:daveandrusko@gmail.com">daveandrusko@gmail.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2009
1:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Apologetics] Thoughts
on the killing of Dr. George Tiller</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>"All they that take the sword shall perish with the
sword." (Gospel of St. Matthew 26:52, KJV)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tiller was one of the very few doctors who
practiced late-term abortions. As horrible as
Tiller's actions were, it is unthinkable for a pro-life person
to engage in murder. How could someone be so
self-contradictory? (As this is written, a suspect is in
custody, but his identity has not been released.)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>As shocking as this killing was, it was even more so
that it occurred at a church, where Tiller was serving as an
usher. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What was the church, I wondered. What kind of
church would want someone like Tiller as a member, much less
allow him to serve as an usher?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The church is the Reformation Lutheran Church in
Wichita, Kansas, which is part of the Evangelical
Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I went to their website and found
this statement: "Our jobs do not define us."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely that statement was written with Tiller in
mind. Certainly our jobs are NOT the ONLY thing
that defines us. But how we live our lives in
EVERYTHING we do--including our job--does, in fact,
define us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As a member of the Reformation Lutheran Church, what was
Tiller's theology? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Did he believe that he was "saved" because he made a
one-time altar call that accepted Jesus as his Lord and
personal savior? Or did he believe that his
charitable works for the poor would "earn" his right to
heaven, despite his continual killing of unborn
children? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Was he able to compartmentalize his religious
beliefs from his occupation? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And what about the Reformation Lutheran Church? Did
they "look the other way" and pretend that what
Tiller did during the week did not matter on Sunday
morning? Or did this church embrace abortions, including
late-term abortions, as a positive good?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is likely the abortion supporters will try to
blame all pro-lifers for this killing, probably with the
help of a large portion of the news media. To
counteract that, we should all speak out against the killing
of anyone. (I oppose the death penalty under almost all
circumstances.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But while strongly deploring this murder, I think we can
publicly ask the Reformation Lutheran Church and the ELCA what
Tiller was doing there serving as an usher. He had NOT
repented of his sins. Tiller was going full
speed ahead in performing unlimited abortions on demand up to
the moment of birth.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How can that be reconciled with ANY form of
Christianity?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff
size=3>Art</FONT></STRONG></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Apologetics
mailing
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