[Apologetics] Re: Three Anti-Social Doctrines of Luther

[Marty Rothwell]

Stuart,

If all you say about Luther is true, then why did he ever leave the Church?
Do I understnad you to say that Luther's and Catholicism definition of faith
are identical!?  Why then did Luther feel he had to create a whole new
doctrine on justification by faith alone to critique the notion of faith +
works, if all he meant was faith alone = faith + works?  What idiot alive
then couldn't have seen that the only thing going on was a battle over
words?
Why did Luther reject James if he didn't think James clearly disagreed with
his new concept of justification?
I know that we have a Lutheran - Catholic understanding of justification
now, but we never could have done it with Luther himself, because Luther had
different beliefs than Lutherans do now.

I understand that many things between Catholic and Protestants can be
resolved once you understand the terms, but to say that deep down Luther had
the same concept of justification as Catholics (and even Lutherans today) is
just incorrect.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: apologetics-admin at gathman.org
[mailto:apologetics-admin at gathman.org]On Behalf Of Stuart D. Gathman
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:32 PM
To: Art Kelly
Cc: apologetics at gathman.org; Jim Murphy
Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: Three Anti-Social Doctrines of Luther


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Art Kelly wrote:

> Tell me again what Luther meant when he said that, if
> he had "faith" (no matter how defined), he could
> commit fornication and murder 1,000 times a day and
> not lose his salvation.

Perhaps it would help if translated to Catholic speak:

"If you sincerely repent, believing that God rewards those
who earnestly seek Him, and strive to show the sincerity
of your repentance by acts of contrition and restitution where
possible, you can be forgiven no matter how many fornications, murders,
and other mortal sins you have committed."

There is lot wrapped up in the Protestant concept of "saving faith".
A shorter Catholic equivalent might be "faith, hope, and love".

The Bible uses the Catholic sense of "faith" in James when it says,
"You believe that there is one God: you do well.  The demons also
believe and tremble."  It uses the Protestant sense when it says,
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."  It
uses the Catholic sense of works in James when it says, "faith without
works is dead."  It uses the Protestant sense when it says, "For by Grace
are
you saved, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Perhaps substituting "living faith" for "faith" and "dead works" for "works"
when reading Luther and other Protestants will help Catholics grasp
what is being said without being too wordy.

> What religious denominations generally hold that view?
> Do ELCA or LCMS Lutherans? Other mainstream
> Protestants? Southern Baptists? Other fundamentalists?
>
> I'd defintely like to know, because I find that view
> contrary to almost every word in the Bible.

"I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

It is Catholic doctrine, and the doctrine of every Orthodox
Protestant denomination.  It is only contrary to Scripture when
a Catholic mind understands "faith" as mere "intellectual ascent".

--
	      Stuart D. Gathman <stuart at bmsi.com>
    Business Management Systems Inc.  Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.

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