[Apologetics] Q about Catholicism

Mon May 9 23:41:31 EDT 2005

Stuart,

You are dead wrong in your explanation of the Catholic doctrine of salvation.  Contrary to your statement " but to a Catholic, we are saved "by works, and not by faith alone" (James)" Catholic doctrine says that we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  It is that faith that spurs us to action (works).  Specifically, from the JOINT DECLARATION  
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION,  By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works (para 15). http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Dead works are those works that are done for the purpose of getting something out of it (recognition, praise, self-esteem, etc.).  Living works are those that are done because of our love of God. Living works can only be performed with the help of God's grace.

I think it's great that you can use Protestant "speak" to explain Catholic doctrine to Protestants but please get your facts straight on the doctrine first.  Otherwise you do more harm than good.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm

http://www.mark-shea.com/salvation.html

Dianne

"Stuart D. Gathman" <stuart at bmsi.com> wrote:
Here is my answer to a question about Catholic doctrine, posted for
your interest and criticism. I am pretty sure I nailed this FAQ, but 
I could always be wrong. First the question, then my answer.
My answer concentrates on addressing the root concern:

The recent context for this was that we showed a video on the life of Pope
John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity (based on the book Great Souls
by David Aikman). This particular person felt it would confuse our
nonChristian international students on the matter of the Gospel to hold up
Pope John Paul as a good and godly man when the "official position" of the
RCC, according to the Council of Trent said that salvation/justification was
not through faith alone, but works as well as faith.

On Mon May 9, 2005, DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:
Subject: Q about Catholicism

Stuart,
I have had a recent conversation with one of our TIPS helpers from a
Bible Church nearby who has expressed some strongly held "anti-catholic"
sentiments, based on the boldened quote below related to the Council of
Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your class on
Catholic/Protestant issues some years ago and would appreciate any
response you might offer concerning the following:

Is the official RC position still what is stated below or has it made any
changes in the last 450 years, specifically related to:
* justification by works as well as by faith
* efficacy of relics, indulgences, and the veneration of the Virgin
Mary and the saints (efficacy to what end?)
* tradition is coequal to Scripture as a source of spiritual knowledge
* and the interpretation of the Bible is the sole right of the church
If the official position hasn't changed, it this what is still taught
post Vatican II in most Catholic churches? or is it a more "evangelical
message"?

and Finally, the word "evangelical" is used frequently to describe John
Paul II. What is meant by its use as it might differ from a Protestant
use of the word?

The recent context for this was that we showed a video on the life of
Pope John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity (based on the book
Great Souls by David Aikman). This particular person felt it would
confuse our nonChristian international students on the matter of the
Gospel to hold up Pope John Paul as a good and godly man when the
"official position" of the RCC, according to the Council of Trent said
that salvation/justification was not through faith alone, but works as
well as faith.

Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
David Case

The Council of Trent, the 19th ecumenical council of the Roman Catholic
church, was held at Trent in northern Italy between 1545 and 1563. It
marked a major turning point in the efforts of the Catholic church to
respond to the challenge of the Protestant Reformation and formed a key
part of the Counter-Reformation. The need for such a council had long
been perceived by certain church leaders, but initial attempts to
organize it were opposed by Francis I of France, who feared it would
strengthen Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, and by the popes themselves, who
feared a revival of Conciliarism. The council eventually met during three
separate periods (1545-47, 1551-52, 1562-63) under the leadership of
three different popes (Paul III, Julius III, Pius IV). All of its decrees
were formally confirmed by Pope Pius IV in 1564.

In the area of religious doctrine, the council refused any concessions to
the Protestants and, in the process, crystallized and codified Catholic
dogma far more than ever before. It directly opposed Protestantism by
reaffirming the existence of seven sacraments, transubstantiation,
purgatory, the necessity of the priesthood, and justification by works as
well as by faith. Clerical celibacy and monasticism were maintained, and
decrees were issued in favor of the efficacy of relics, indulgences, and
the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints. Tradition was declared
coequal to Scripture as a source of spiritual knowledge, and the sole
right of the church to interpret the Bible was asserted.

To: stuart at bmsi.com
Subject: RE: Q about Catholicism

Stuart,
Thanks for such a prompt and helpful reply, and yes, I think another class
would be worthwhile. David

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart D. Gathman [mailto:stuart at bmsi.com]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:45 PM
To: David Case
Subject: Re: Q about Catholicism

On Mon, 2 May 2005 DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:

> Stuart,
> I have had a recent conversation with one of our TIPS helpers from a Bible
> Church nearby who has expressed some strongly help "anti-catholic"
> sentiments, based on the boldened quote below related to the Council of
> Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your class on Catholic/Protestant
> issues some years ago and would appreciate any response you might offer
> concerning the following:
> 
> Is the official RC position still what is stated below or has it made any
> changes in the last 450 years, specifically related to:

a) The position hasn't changed.

b) It doesn't mean what he thinks it does. Let's take the first example:

> * justification by works as well as by faith

"Faith" means something like "intellectual ascent" to a Catholic, as in "I
believe airplanes can fly, but I don't trust them". To a Protestant, "faith"
means trust, as in "Not only do I believe airplanes can fly, but I'm getting on
one now to go visit my friend." The Protestant slogan "Sola fide": "faith
alone", sounds like lame faith to a Catholic. Indeed, the book of James says,
"Faith without works is dead, being alone." On the other hand, the Catholic
formula "faith plus works" sounds like self righteousness to a Protestant.

You see, both agree on the fundamental problem facing humanity: original sin.
This doesn't mean that we can't do good things. It means that not only are we
unable to reverse entropy and defeat physical death, but our moral character is
also decaying, so that if its slow decline is not reversed, our spirits will
eventually end up as twisted and deformed shadows of what we were created to be
- i.e. evil. Determining to do good can produce temporary improvements and
delay the inevitable, like diet and exercise for the body. But ultimately,
without Divine intervention we are doomed.

You see, "works" can have two meanings also. There are "dead works", those
well meaning but ultimately futile attempts to be a better person by trying
harder, and there are "living works", those works inspired by God, "which he
has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians) according to His
Grace. As you might guess, Catholics use the word "works" to mean "living
works", and Protestants use the word to mean "dead works". Hence, to a
Protestant, we are saved "by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man
should boast" (Ephesians), but to a Catholic, we are saved "by works, and not
by faith alone" (James). Both statements are in the Bible, and amount to the
same thing once you understand what kind of faith and what kind of works we are
talking about.

=====

So, translating "saved by faith and works" to more neutral language
would give something like, "saved by accepting the truth and demonstrating
a living faith".

Next up, the meaning of "saved". :-) Is it time for another class?

-- 
Stuart D. Gathman 
Business Management Systems Inc. Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.

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Ps 42:1

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