[Apologetics] Q about Catholicism

Tue May 10 10:18:35 EDT 2005

I've discussed this with Stuart in great detail many
times in the past. I know that he fully and completely
understands Catholic doctrine on justification.

Stuart is certainly aware that it requires actual
grace for anyone to repent of a sin or to perform an
act of charity. Nonetheless, we have free will and can
disregard the graces which God provides.

Verly few, if any, Protestants would say that
charitable acts are not REQUIRED of a Christian. No
Catholic thinks that charitable acts done without
faith and the requiste intention of pleasing God will
EARN salvation.

Catholics and Lutherans finally figured out that they
were saying essentially the same things for 500 years.

Art

--- Dianne Dawson <rcdianne at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Stuart,
>  
> You are dead wrong in your explanation of the
> Catholic doctrine of salvation.  Contrary to your
> statement " but to a Catholic, we are saved "by
> works, and not by faith alone" (James)" Catholic
> doctrine says that we are saved by God's grace
> through faith in Jesus Christ.  It is that faith
> that spurs us to action (works).  Specifically, from
> the JOINT DECLARATION  
> ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION,  By grace alone,
> in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of
> any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and
> receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while
> equipping and calling us to good works (para 15).
>
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
> 
> Dead works are those works that are done for the
> purpose of getting something out of it (recognition,
> praise, self-esteem, etc.).  Living works are those
> that are done because of our love of God. Living
> works can only be performed with the help of God's
> grace.
> 
> I think it's great that you can use Protestant
> "speak" to explain Catholic doctrine to Protestants
> but please get your facts straight on the doctrine
> first.  Otherwise you do more harm than good.
> 
> http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm
> 
> http://www.mark-shea.com/salvation.html
> 
> Dianne
> 
> 
> "Stuart D. Gathman" <stuart at bmsi.com> wrote:
> Here is my answer to a question about Catholic
> doctrine, posted for
> your interest and criticism. I am pretty sure I
> nailed this FAQ, but 
> I could always be wrong. First the question, then my
> answer.
> My answer concentrates on addressing the root
> concern:
> 
> The recent context for this was that we showed a
> video on the life of Pope
> John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity (based
> on the book Great Souls
> by David Aikman). This particular person felt it
> would confuse our
> nonChristian international students on the matter of
> the Gospel to hold up
> Pope John Paul as a good and godly man when the
> "official position" of the
> RCC, according to the Council of Trent said that
> salvation/justification was
> not through faith alone, but works as well as faith.
> 
> On Mon May 9, 2005, DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:
> Subject: Q about Catholicism
> 
> Stuart,
> I have had a recent conversation with one of our
> TIPS helpers from a
> Bible Church nearby who has expressed some strongly
> held "anti-catholic"
> sentiments, based on the boldened quote below
> related to the Council of
> Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your
> class on
> Catholic/Protestant issues some years ago and would
> appreciate any
> response you might offer concerning the following:
> 
> Is the official RC position still what is stated
> below or has it made any
> changes in the last 450 years, specifically related
> to:
> * justification by works as well as by faith
> * efficacy of relics, indulgences, and the
> veneration of the Virgin
> Mary and the saints (efficacy to what end?)
> * tradition is coequal to Scripture as a source of
> spiritual knowledge
> * and the interpretation of the Bible is the sole
> right of the church
> If the official position hasn't changed, it this
> what is still taught
> post Vatican II in most Catholic churches? or is it
> a more "evangelical
> message"?
> 
> and Finally, the word "evangelical" is used
> frequently to describe John
> Paul II. What is meant by its use as it might differ
> from a Protestant
> use of the word?
> 
> The recent context for this was that we showed a
> video on the life of
> Pope John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity
> (based on the book
> Great Souls by David Aikman). This particular person
> felt it would
> confuse our nonChristian international students on
> the matter of the
> Gospel to hold up Pope John Paul as a good and godly
> man when the
> "official position" of the RCC, according to the
> Council of Trent said
> that salvation/justification was not through faith
> alone, but works as
> well as faith.
> 
> Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
> David Case
> 
> 
> The Council of Trent, the 19th ecumenical council of
> the Roman Catholic
> church, was held at Trent in northern Italy between
> 1545 and 1563. It
> marked a major turning point in the efforts of the
> Catholic church to
> respond to the challenge of the Protestant
> Reformation and formed a key
> part of the Counter-Reformation. The need for such a
> council had long
> been perceived by certain church leaders, but
> initial attempts to
> organize it were opposed by Francis I of France, who
> feared it would
> strengthen Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, and by the
> popes themselves, who
> feared a revival of Conciliarism. The council
> eventually met during three
> separate periods (1545-47, 1551-52, 1562-63) under
> the leadership of
> three different popes (Paul III, Julius III, Pius
> IV). All of its decrees
> were formally confirmed by Pope Pius IV in 1564.
> 
> In the area of religious doctrine, the council
> refused any concessions to
> the Protestants and, in the process, crystallized
> and codified Catholic
> dogma far more than ever before. It directly opposed
> Protestantism by
> reaffirming the existence of seven sacraments,
> transubstantiation,
> purgatory, the necessity of the priesthood, and
> justification by works as
> well as by faith. Clerical celibacy and monasticism
> were maintained, and
> decrees were issued in favor of the efficacy of
> relics, indulgences, and
> the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints.
> Tradition was declared
> coequal to Scripture as a source of spiritual
> knowledge, and the sole
> right of the church to interpret the Bible was
> asserted.
> 
> To: stuart at bmsi.com
> Subject: RE: Q about Catholicism
> 
> Stuart,
> Thanks for such a prompt and helpful reply, and yes,
> I think another class
> would be worthwhile. David
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stuart D. Gathman [mailto:stuart at bmsi.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:45 PM
> To: David Case
> Subject: Re: Q about Catholicism
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2 May 2005 DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:
> 
> > Stuart,
> > I have had a recent conversation with one of our
> TIPS helpers from a Bible
> > Church nearby who has expressed some strongly help
> "anti-catholic"
> > sentiments, based on the boldened quote below
> related to the Council of
> > Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your
> class on Catholic/Protestant
> > issues some years ago and would appreciate any
> response you might offer
> > concerning the following:
> > 
> > Is the official RC position still what is stated
> below or has it made any
> > changes in the last 450 years, specifically
> related to:
> 
> a) The position hasn't changed.
> 
> b) It doesn't mean what he thinks it does. Let's
> take the first example:
> 
> > * justification by works as well as by faith
> 
> "Faith" means something like "intellectual ascent"
> to a Catholic, as in "I
> believe airplanes can fly, but I don't trust them".
> To a Protestant, "faith"
> means trust, as in "Not only do I believe airplanes
> can fly, but I'm getting on
> one now to go visit my friend." The Protestant
> slogan "Sola fide": "faith
> alone", sounds like lame faith to a Catholic.
> Indeed, the book of James says,
> "Faith without works is dead, being alone." On the
> other hand, the Catholic
> formula "faith plus works" sounds like self
> righteousness to a Protestant.
> 
> You see, both agree on the fundamental problem
> facing humanity: original sin.
> This doesn't mean that we can't do good things. It
> means that not only are we
> unable to reverse entropy and defeat physical death,
> but our moral character is
> also decaying, so that if its slow decline is not
> reversed, our spirits will
> eventually end up as twisted and deformed shadows of
> what we were created to be
> - i.e. evil. Determining to do good can produce
> temporary improvements and
> delay the inevitable, like diet and exercise for the
> body. But ultimately,
> without Divine intervention we are doomed.
> 
> You see, "works" can have two meanings also. There
> are "dead works", those
> well meaning but ultimately futile attempts to be a
> better person by trying
> harder, and there are "living works", those works
> inspired by God, "which he
> has before ordained that we should walk in them"
> (Ephesians) according to His
> Grace. As you might guess, Catholics use the word
> "works" to mean "living
> works", and Protestants use the word to mean "dead
> works". Hence, to a
> Protestant, we are saved "by grace through faith,
> not of works, lest any man
> should boast" (Ephesians), but to a Catholic, we are
> saved "by works, and not
> by faith alone" (James). Both statements are in the
> Bible, and amount to the
> same thing once you understand what kind of faith
> and what kind of works we are
> talking about.
> 
> =====
> 
> So, translating "saved by faith and works" to more
> neutral language
> would give something like, "saved by accepting the
> truth and demonstrating
> a living faith".
> 
> Next up, the meaning of "saved". :-) Is it time for
> another class?
> 
> -- 
> Stuart D. Gathman 
> Business Management Systems Inc. Phone: 703 591-0911
> Fax: 703 591-6154
> "Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" -
> background song for
> a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from
> here?" commercial.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul
> longs for you, O God.
> 
> Ps 42:1
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 		
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ART KELLY, ATM-S
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