[Apologetics] Jim Murphy Returns for Apologetics Meeting 7:30 PM Saturday 24 June

[Art Kelly]

Dear Friends,

Please put on your calendar our next Apologetics Group
meeting: 7:30 PM on Saturday, 24 June.

The place is still being determined, but we'll let you
know just as soon as that has been finally decided.

The big news is that our friend, Jim Murphy, will be
back from Georgia for a brief visit and will be at the
meeting.

I hope you will be able to be there.

Here's a message I received from Jim about what he'd
like to talk about:

"At our June meeting, I will propose the following 
proposition for heated discussion.  Keep in mind 
that I am never really happy unless I am causing 
trouble.

"The Council of Trent was an abysmal failure.  

"Although I agree with all that it teaches, the 
Council fathers missed the point in nearly every 
conceivable way.  The Reformers posed questions the 
Council Fathers were not ready for and on subject 
they had probably never even considered.  Although 
the Council documents do not contain error, they 
answered the questions raised by the Reformers 
from the wrong point of view and the answers have 
left Protestants scratching their heads in 
bewilderment ever since.

"I respectfully request that we have no dialogue 
on this topic until the meeting.  Please do not 
send me email condemnations.  I always prefer to be 
condemned face-to-face.  It should also be noted 
that I am not facing a crisis of faith and I love 
the Catholic Church more with each passing day.  
As I have always maintained, the Catholic Church 
is the most radical institution in human history.  
If it is not constantly rocking your boat you are 
missing the whole point."

In a follow-up message, Jim wrote:

"My suggested topic has nothing to do with my 
weird political views, just my weird theological 
study.  I love the Council of Trent.  I have studied 
most of the important sections.  I have no 
problem at all with the Church.  It is the body of 
Christ present on this earth and I am happily subject 
to every single thing it teaches.

"If historic Protestants are truly Christians 
(Vatican II dogmatically states that they are) one 
must wonder, I think, how a document specifically 
addressed to their concerns could have passed into 
total obscurity, from their point of view.  

"I have spent a considerable amount of time 
studying the Reformation.  While I am far from an 
expert, much of what I have discovered bothers me.  
It’s not the sinfulness of some of the members 
since that has always been present in the visible 
Church, but more the tone of the document and the 
sense I have that the Council Fathers failed to 
grasp some of the points raised by the Reformers.

"I look at the time period leading up the 
Reformation as a very important part of the whole
debate.  

"I am particularly interested in the ideas known 
as nominalism and how that influence created real 
problems in dialogue.  If you look at the 
situation like a big dysfunctional family, which the 
Church was at the time, I think it helps see where 
I’m coming from.

"The institutional Church can be thought of a mom 
and dad.  The Reformers are the kids.  Mom and 
Dad have created a home life that includes lots of 
do’s and don’t.  Let’s say all of the rules 
(doctrines of the Church) are sensible and well 
thought out.  Let’s take it one step further and
assume they are infallible.  There are problems in
this household and the kids have real issues with the 
rules.  They see the rules listed in the great 
books of the household, but they see inconsistencies
in practice.  One day all seven children present the
parents with a list of 95 objections.  They 
do this in a way that pisses off Mom and Dad by 
nailing them to the door of the master bedroom.  
Many of the objections and questions are worded in 
such a way that Mom and Dad are confused as to 
the intentions of the children and the real 
concerns the kids have that underline the whole 
situation.

"The parents tell the children that they will get 
back to them on the objections.  At times of the 
next few weeks arguments breaks out concerning 
the 95 objections and the parents lose it 
completely.  All five children leave the house in
total disgust.  As they are walking down the front
walk, the parents yell to the kids that they will 
answer each and every objection.  Never mind that at 
this point they don’t fully understand most of the 
issues, but they have a wealth of knowledge in 
related matters.  After all they created the very 
rules that are under question.  The children 
officially placed the objections on the door in 2000. 


"The parents begin deliberation in 2028.  Sure 
some time has passed, but hey it’s not like they 
won’t get to it.  The parents have been studying the 
issues over this 28 year period and occasionally 
they have spoken to the children so some 
clarification has come through.  The parents inform
the children that they will formally respond to the 
objections in writing.  On 2046 the parents issue 
the written document.  By this time five of the 
children have died.  The remaining five can only 
laugh at this absurd situation.  At total of 46 
years have passed and all the surviving children can 
say is, 'thanks for nothing.'  

"It should be remembers that approximately 46 
years passed from the time of Martin Luther’s big 95 
and the close of the Council of Trent.  That 
little thought of fact is enough to call into 
question the whole mess.  Can you imagine any
household operating in this fashion?  I can’t and yet
it happened just this way.

"Please keep in mind that the doctrine of 
infallibility does not mean that an official document 
correctly addresses the issue at hand.  All it 
ensures is that the document is free from all 
doctrinal error.  I am not for a nanosecond suggesting
the Council erred.  It produced what I believe was an
exceptional document written by Catholics and for
Catholics.  The problem is that those to whom it was
addressed were no longer Catholic and had long
forgotten Catholic ways. Hence the massive problems
that persist to this day.

"This is about all I’m ready to tell you at this 
point.   I hope it makes sense.  I suggest you 
guys gird you loins and prepare for battle."

Needless to say, I strongly disagree with almost
everything Jim wrote--not just his conclusions but
also all of his premises.

Jim didn't cite any sources, so I'll provide a very
strong recommendation:  CREDIBLE historical sources
MUST be utilized for any assertion to be taken
seriously.

In the meantime, please put 7:30 PM, Saturday, 24
June, on your calendar. (Place still up in the air.)
   
Cordially,
Art

                           
  ART KELLY, ATM-S
  13524 Brightfield Lane
  Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
  (703) 904-3763 home
  (703) 396-6956 work
  arthurkelly at yahoo.com
  art.kelly at cox.net
  ArtK135 at Netscape.net
   
   















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