[Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church

Wed Nov 1 14:05:14 EST 2006

Hi

It's been a long time since I last read their arguments, so I forget what
their evidence was.  But a lot is the sort of contortion based on similar
sounding words.  Dan = Denmark/Danish/Danube/etc.  USA=13th tribe because of
13 arrows, 13 states, etc.  British = Israelite because Brit = covenant, ish
= man in Hebrew.

About the succession on that link for the Ecumenical Patriarch ... isn't
that just like any Catholic bishop might have, if he does have a valid
succession (as we believe the Ecumenical Patriarch does)?

God bless,
Stephen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Kelly" <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
To: "Apologetics Group" <apologetics at gathman.org>; "Jim Murphy"
<jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>; "Father Phillips" <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church

> Stephen,
>
> For someone to claim that Joseph of Arimatahea did
> missionary work and started the Christian Church in
> England would require some proof.
>
> Exactly what is the proof?
>
> Furthermore, what relationship could such a Joseph of
> Armiatahea Church have to the Anglican Church, which
> left the Catholic Church when King Henry VIII wanted
> to divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boelyn?
>
> I'd bet Henry never heard of a Joseph of Armiatahea
> Church. The line of succession/revolt from the
> Catholic Church to the Anglican Church is beyond
> question.
>
> Now, some/many/all Eastern Orthodox may think their
> church was the original Christian Church. For
> instance, the website for the so-called Ecumenical
> Patriarch of Constantinople at
> http://www.ec-patr.gr/list/index.php?lang=en
> attempts to show a Catholic-like unbroken line of
> succession from St. Andrew to Bartholomew.
>
> This is absurd.
>
> An article in the Catholic Encyclopedia about
> Constantinople at
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm
> states in part:
>
> "Traces of Christianity do not appear here before the
> end of the second or the beginning of the third
> century...The first historically known Bishop of
> Byzantium is St. Metrophanes (306-314), though the see
> had perhaps been occupied during the third century."
>
> I may write an article about the Eastern Orthodox
> spurious line of succesion, but one name jumped out at
> me right away. They claim Eusebius of Nicomedia from
> 339 to 342. This bishop was a notorious Arian!
>
> As of the idea of ancient Baptists, it fails even the
> most elementary tests.
>
> None of the groups claimed--Donatists, Novations,
> Montanists, Paulicians and Waldenses, Albigenses,
> Waldenses, and Anabaptists--were similar to one
> another and all had tremendous differences between
> themselves and Baptists.
>
> To their credit, the Anglicans do not claim any
> independent apostolic succession outside of the
> Catholic Church. Whoever made these claims in the name
> of Anglicanism cannot be serious.
>
> Art
>
> --- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > I've seen this argument before.  It's not so much
> > about the Anglican
> > denomination existing prior to Henry VIII, but a
> > claim that the British were
> > true Christians (due to Joseph of Arimathea's
> > missionary work, and some
> > include Jesus himself before his ministry began as
> > recorded in the Gospels)
> > before being corrupted by Catholic influence.
> > Specific examples being the
> > corruption of true Christianity in Ireland by St
> > Patrick (or the corruption
> > of St Patrick's true Sabbath-keeping non-Trinitarian
> > Christianity by later
> > Catholic input) and the corruption of true
> > Christianity in England by the
> > arrival of St Augustine of Canterbury, their first
> > bishop.
> >
> > It's a theory well-liked by the British Israel
> > crowd, who believe that the
> > Britons are the true descendants of Ephraim and/or
> > Manasseh, the two sons of
> > Joseph (see Genesis 48.)  The other "lost" tribes of
> > Israel are located in
> > various places in Europe, Dan usually being linked
> > to the Irish and/or the
> > Danish.  Only Judah and Benjamin remained as the
> > kingdom of Judah, the rest
> > formed the kingdom of Israel (see the Jeroboam, king
> > of Israel / Rehoboam,
> > king of Judah (son of Solomon) split in 1 Kings
> > 12-14.  In 1 Kings 12 Israel
> > and Judah/Benjamin are at war with each other.  The
> > idea is that Judah (with
> > Benjamin and some Levites) became the Jews, and the
> > other 10 tribes (Joseph
> > split in two - Ephraim and Manasseh) with some
> > Levites disappeared from
> > biblical history (but not from biblical prophecy.)
> > Some argue that England
> > and the Commonwealth are Ephraim, and the USA/Canada
> > are Manasseh, and some
> > swop that around.
> >
> > Ultimately, it's similar to the Baptist claim to
> > succession from the
> > Apostles, except it's a combination of an ancestral
> > lineage going back to
> > Jacob, and a theological lineage of true
> > Christianity outside the Catholic
> > Church (as Albigensians, Paulicians, and a variety
> > of groups with weird
> > theologies.)
> >
> > The above may or may not have any relevance to the
> > specific radio programme
> > in question ... it's just one possibility of where
> > these ideas may originate
> > .
> >
> > God bless,
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Art Kelly" <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> > To: <jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>; "Apologetics Group"
> > <apologetics at gathman.org>;
> > "Father Phillips" <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:48 PM
> > Subject: [Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church
> >
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > As you may recall, I know Stan Montieth, although
> > I've
> > > not talked with him in some time.
> > >
> > > I may call him to ask who this guest was and how I
> > can
> > > contact that person. I may also suggest to Stan
> > that
> > > such absurd statements should not go unchallenged.
> > >
> > > Since it is indisputable that, under King Henry
> > VIII,
> > > the Anglican Church left the Catholic Church,
> > there is
> > > no way that the Anglican Chruch could possibly be
> > the
> > > oldest Christian denomination.
> > >
> > > Perhaps what he meant was that the Reformation
> > > restored Christianity to its original form before
> > the
> > > Catholic Church got off track.
> > >
> > > Of course, such a contention is impossible to
> > prove,
> > > but I suppose some Anglicans might claim that the
> > > religion they practice is more in line with
> > original
> > > Christianity than Catholicism.
> > >
> > > Is that what the guest said?
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I think you previously wrote
> > that
> > > the guest claimed that the Anglican Church was
> > started
> > > by Joseph of Arimathea. To my knowledge, no
> > Christian
> > > historian of any denomination has ever suggested
> > such
> > > a thing.
> > >
> > > What proof, if any, did he submit for such a
> > startling
> > > statement?  And if true, where was the Anglican
> > Church
> > > all of the centuries before King Henry VIII?
> > >
> > > Art
> > >
> > > --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > Art,
> > > >
> > > > It was on Radio Liberty hosted by Dr Stan
> > Montieth.
> > > > Lately the good doctor has begun to drop the
> > curtain
> > > > on a very anti-Catholic persona.  I do not
> > recall
> > > > the name of the guest, but he was from Great
> > > > Britain.  The guest launched into an attack on
> > the
> > > > Church and unlike in the past Dr Stan wanted
> > more.
> > > > At on point in the interview the guest openly
> > stated
> > > > the Catholic Church is a false church and that
> > it is
> > > > the woman riding the beast.  Dr Stan loved it
> > and
> > > > begged for more.  The guest informed him that he
> > did
> > > > not want to offend the Catholic listeners any
> > more
> > > > than he already had and Stan agreed.
> > > >
> > > > The guy claimed, with no proof whatsoever, the
> > > > Anglican Church is the oldest historic Christian
> > > > Church.  I was amazed that Dr Stan did not voice
> > > > even the slightest hint of a protest at this
> > claim
> > > > given that he holds the lowest possible view of
> > the
> > > > church because he does not even think a
> > Christian
> > > > needs a church.  It's just Stan and Jesus.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> > > > > Date: 2006/10/26 Thu PM 11:50:19 EDT
> > > > > To: jmurf80 at bellsouth.net,  Apologetics Group
> > > > <apologetics at gathman.org>,
> > > > >   Father Phillips
> > <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Historic Church
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is absurd on a multi-dimensional level.
> > > > >
> > > > > What radio program did you hear this on? Who
> > was
> > > > the
> > > > > speaker? What station or network was it on?
> > What
> > > > could
> > > > > possibly have been their source of
> > information?
> > > > >
> > > > > Was it their contention that Jesus founded the
> > > > > Anglican Church on Joseph of Arimathea? What
> > > > exactly
> > > > > is their proof? And where was this church for
> > > > 1,500
> > > > > years before King Henry VIII?
> > > > >
> > > > > I seriously doubt that even the Anglican
> > > > Archbishop of
> > > > > Canterbury would belive this nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Were the persons making this claim serious or
> > was
> > > > it
> > > > > just a joke? Maybe a parody of the Trail of
> > Blood
> > > > > absurdity which claims ancient Baptists?
> > > > >
> > > > > Please provide more information on this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Art
> > > > >
> > > > > --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Art,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well it's time to convert to the Anglican
> > > > Church.
> > > > > > Earlier today I heard a radio program while
> > I
> > > > was
> > > > > > working on an appraisal that really had me
> > > > laughing.
> > > > > >  It seems the Anglican Church was founded by
> > > > Joseph
> > > > > > of Arimathea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SO TAKE THAT YOU WICKED CATHOLIC!  It's a
> > Rock
> > > > you
> > > > > > can stand on!  A Rock that will never fail
> > you!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > > >   13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > > >   Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > > >   (703) 904-3763 home
> > > > >   arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > > >   art.kelly at cox.net
> > > > >   ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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