[Apologetics] Amended Thought on Proposed Role of Catholic Deaconesses

[Art Kelly]

In describing what a deaconess could do in the Catholic Church, I wrote the role would be a combination altar server, lector, and Eucharistic minister, along with the responsibility to confer the sacrament of Baptism.
 
I also said it wouldn't hurt to let deaconesses preach a homily once in a while. However, I momentarily forgot about St. Paul's 1st Epistle to the Corinithians 14:33-35: 
 
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.  If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
 
I'm not exactly sure how that fits into women lectors or women choir directors who come to the pulpit to explain the songs that will be sung in the hymnal.  But the comments from the choir director occur BEFORE the Mass actually starts and lectors are not really SPEAKING but rather READING Scripture and announcments. 
 
In any case, giving a homily (or as we used to call them, sermons) are light years beyond the role of lectors and choir directors.  So, while Catholic deconesses (who would NOT have Holy Orders but would have an enhanced role in the Church and in the liturgy) could do a lot of things, giving a homily would probably NOT be one of them.
 
Art
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Apologetics] Re: Vatican Considering Union Request From Anglicans & Cardinal to Anglicans: Church Teaching Is Scriptural
To: "Apologetics Group" <apologetics at gathman.org>
Cc: "Father Phillips" <frphillips at atonementonline.com>, "Rev. Robin Rauh" <rrauh at his-star.org>, "Ward Collins" <wcollins at netins.net>, "Jim Murphy" <jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>
Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 11:49 PM







Cardinal Kasper is much more than "a day late and a dollar short."  There is no difference doctrinally between the invalid ordination of women as priests and as bishops.
 
It's been a good while since Anglicans started trying to "ordain" women.  Extending it from priests (priestesses?) to bishops (bishopettes?) is irrelvant.
 
On the other hand, the ordination of Anglican men is also invalid.  My source?  The 39 Articles, which do not even consider Holy Orders to be a sacrament.  Anglicans lost Apostolic Succession back around 1550 when their ordinations ceased to have the same INTENT as Catholic ordinations.
 
About 300 years after that, the Oxford Movement attempted to semi-Catholicize the Anglican Church, which had become throughly Protestant in every way.  But it was way too late by then.  
 
So, today it doesn't make any difference. Anglican "ordinations" of both men and women are EQUALLY INVALID.
 
Now, if a miracle were to occur and there should be some movement towards reunion, Catholic bishops could ordain Anglican bishops who could then ordain Anglican priests, thereby restoring Apostolic Succession. However, that would NEVER happen as long as there were women "priests" or/and "bishops."
 
Actually, I see a solution, but it too would take even a greater miracle.  The Anglican women "priests" and "bishops" could be converted to deaconesses.
 
There WERE deaconesses in the Catholic Church in the early centuries.  These were NOT the same thing as male deacons.  They were more like nuns.  
 
Even so, there is no reason women could not today be made "deaconesses" with responsibilities similar to lectors, Eucharistic ministers, and altar servers.  They could even administer the sacrament of Baptism, since any lay man or woman can do that anyway.
 
And you know what?  These deaconesses would not turn to a pillar of salt if they were allowed to preach a homily now and then.
 
It would require a clear explanation that they really do NOT have Holy Orders in the same way deacons do, but their position in the Church is important and valued nonetheless.
 
But there is ZERO chance the women "ministers" in the Anglican Church would go along with such a demotion. If this were agreed to by the Lambeth Conference, the women "ministers," and a lot of the liberal men, would all go form some other denomination--which might be a good thing.
 
But who knows?  In another 1,000 years, give or take a century, maybe something like that will happen.

 
Art
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Dianne Dawson <rcdianne at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dianne Dawson <rcdianne at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Apologetics] Vatican Considering Union Request From Anglicans & Cardinal to Anglicans: Church Teaching Is Scriptural
To: "Apologetics Group" <apologetics at gathman.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 8:37 PM






Vatican Considering Union Request From Anglicans
Cardinal Says Congregation Giving Proposal "Serious Attention"

VATICAN CITY, JULY 30, 2008 (Zenit.org).- The Holy See is following with "serious attention" the request from the Traditional Anglican Communion for "full, corporate, sacramental union" with Rome.

This was affirmed by the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal William Levada, in a July 5 letter to the primate of the Anglican group, Archbishop John Hepworth.

The letter was written before the beginning of the Lambeth Conference, the once-a-decade gathering of Anglican leaders that is under way in England through Aug. 4. The Lambeth Conference is facing unprecedented controversy, and some bishops boycotted it altogether. 

The conflict within the Communion has arisen over debate about the possibility of ordaining homosexual bishops and blessing homosexual marriages. A synod decision this summer to pave the way for the episcopal ordination of women has further alienated some Anglican leaders, many of whom were in disagreement with the Communion's decision to ordain women as priests.

According to Cardinal Levada's letter, "over the course of the past year, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has studied the proposals which you presented on behalf of the House of Bishops of the Traditional Anglican Communion during your visit to the offices of this dicastery on Oct. 9, 2007."

"As the summer months approach, I wish to assure you the serious attention which the congregation gives to the prospect of corporate unity raised in that letter," the cardinal added.

The Traditional Anglican Communion states that its aim is "to recall Anglicanism to its heritage, to heal divisions caused by departures from the faith, and to build a vibrant church for the future based on powerful local leadership." By some counts, it has about 400,000 faithful. If the request for "corporate union" is deemed possible, it would imply the entrance of entire parish communities into communion with Rome.

Cardinal Levada acknowledged that "the situation within the Anglican Communion in general has become markedly more complex" since the Traditional Anglican Communion's request was originally made.

He affirmed that "as soon as the congregation is in position to respond more definitely concerning the proposals you have sent, we will inform you."

The Anglican primate received the letter via the apostolic nuncio in Australia last Friday. 

He immediately made public a note expressing his gratitude for the Vatican message.

"It is a letter of warmth and encouragement," he said. "I have responded, expressing my gratitude on behalf of 'my brother bishops,' reaffirming our determination to achieve the unity for which Jesus prayed with such intensity at the Last Supper, no matter what the personal cost this might mean in our discipleship."

"This letter should encourage our entire Communion, and those friends who have been assisting us," Archbishop Hepworth added. "It should also spur us to renewed prayer for the Holy Father, for Cardinal Levada and his staff at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and for all our clergy and people as we move to ever closer communion in Christ with the Holy See." 


Cardinal to Anglicans: Church Teaching Is Scriptural

Laments "Step Backward" in Dialogue

CANTERBURY, England, JULY 30, 2008 (Zenit.org).- The episcopal ordination of women will mean a "step backward" for dialogue between Catholics and Anglicans, warned Cardinal Walter Kasper at the Anglican Communion's Lambeth Conference.

The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity addressed today the once-a-decade gathering of Anglican leaders, under way in England through this weekend.

L'Osservatore Romano published an Italian-language transcript of his address, which began with an assurance of the spiritual closeness of Benedict XVI.

"I know that many of you are worried, some deeply worried, by the threat of fragmentation at the heart of the Anglican Communion," the cardinal said. "We are profoundly in solidarity with you.

"Our great desire is that the Anglican Communion be united, rooted in this historical faith, which our dialogue and relationships, over the course of four decades, have brought us to believe is widely shared."

Cardinal Kasper directly addressed the two issues that are causing conflict within the Anglican Communion, and which brought some leaders to boycott the Lambeth Conference altogether: the ordination of homosexuals and the blessing of same-sex marriages, and the ordination of women.

He assured his listeners that the Catholic Church believes its position on both issues is deeply rooted in sacred Scripture.

"In light of the tensions of past years in regard [to questions on human sexuality], a clear declaration from the Anglican Communion would offer us greater possibilities to provide a common testimony on human sexuality and matrimony, a testimony painfully necessary for the world of today," Cardinal Kasper suggested.

Regarding the ordination of women to the priesthood and the episcopate, the Vatican official affirmed: "I have to be clear concerning the new situation that has been created in our ecumenical relations. If our dialogue has produced a significant accord on the idea of the priesthood, the ordination of women to the episcopate substantially and definitively blocks a possible recognition of Anglican orders by the Catholic Church."

The cardinal recalled Church teaching that the practice of ordaining only men comes directly from Christ, and the Church is not in a position to change it.

He was clear that the decision to go forward with the episcopal ordination of women would have dire effects on ecumenical relations.

"We desire the continuation of theological dialogue between the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church," he affirmed, "but this last step undermines our objective and alters the level that we are seeking in dialogue. Now it seems that full, visible communion, as the objective of our dialogue, has taken a step backward, that our dialogue will have less defined objectives and, therefore, its nature will be changed.

"Though this dialogue can still produce good results, it will not be supported by the dynamism that comes from the realistic possibility of the union that Christ demands of us or of the common participation at the table of the one Lord, which we desire so ardently."


 



Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.
Ps 42:1
 
 






      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://gathman.org/pipermail/apologetics/attachments/20080730/f3b94bc1/attachment.html>