No subject
Sat Jul 7 18:01:30 EDT 2018
rite to the time of the current rite--about 1,300
years--the Mass had NO Epiclesis.
In an article on the Epiclesis, the 1913 Catholic
Encyclopedia states:
“Nor is there any doubt that the Western rites at one
time contained similar invocations…It seems that an
early insistence on the words of Institution as the
form of Consecration (see, for instance,
Pseudo-Ambrose, "De Mysteriis", IX, 52, and "De
Sacramentis", IV, 4, 14-15, 23; St. Augustine, Sermon
227) led in the West to the neglect and mutilation of
the Epiclesis…
“The Catholic Church has decided the question by
making us kneel and adore the Holy Eucharist
immediately after the words of Institution, and by
letting her old Invocation practically disappear…
“The final argument against the Epiclesis as
Consecration-form is the account of the Last Supper in
the Gospels. We know what Christ did then, and that He
told us to do the same thing. There is NO hint of an
Epiclesis at the Last Supper.”
Your statement is absolutely false that “the Chaldean
Catholics do have the words of institution as an
OPTIONAL wording; this was added recently, and many
Catholics are returning to the original form WITHOUT
these words. So many Chaldeans use the liturgy with
the words of institution, and many use it WITHOUT
them; both are valid.”
The words of institution are MANDATORY in the Chaldean
Catholic Church and always have been since 1672 when
Patriarch Joseph I broke away from the Nestorians,
made a public profession of the Catholic faith, and
obtained recognition from Rome. The very first thing
he did was insert the words of institution in the
liturgy. (A History of the Chaldean Mass, William F.
Macomber, Ph.D.)
I previously provided you a link to the liturgy of the
Chaldean Mass at
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
The words of institution are so important they are
listed in BOLD. They are NOT optional. They are
absolutely required in the Chaldean Mass!
Furthermore, the apparent lack of these words of
institution that was the issue in determining if
Catholics and members of the Assyrian Church of the
East (the current name for the Nestorians, who have
since renounced their heretical views) could seek out
each other’s ministers in the case of an emergency.
(As previously noted, the liturgy of the Assyrian
Church of the East lacks a meaningful Epiclesis.)
The Vatican stated:
“When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are
permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion
in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in
the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is
physically or morally impossible to approach a
Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to
receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of
the Holy Eucharist…
“When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and
Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
Church of the East.”
I’ve read a couple of articles indicating that, while
the words of institution are not contained in the
Assyrian liturgy, they are actually used. They are
not printed because, according to the source, they
were considered to be too holy to commit to paper.
Of course, since the words of institution are
contained in Scripture, I cannot see why they could
not be written in their liturgy. Nevertheless, the
Assyrian Church of the East hinted as much in two of
their documents on this subject.
The Joint Committee for Theological Dialogue, November
1995, states, “In any case, from the beginning, the
Church of the East always believed, as the Catholic
Church, that what she performs is what was DONE BY
CHRIST and his disciples in the Last Supper, and what
CHRIST HAS ORDERED his disciples to do in his memory
until he comes again.”
And in July 2001, a joint document with the Pontifical
Council For Promoting Christian Unity, states:
“In conscience of faith, the Assyrian Church of the
East was always convinced to celebrate the Eucharist
validly and so to perform in its FULLNESS what Jesus
Christ ASKED his disciples to do.”
All of this discussion originated with a contrast of
the Tridentine Rite with the current rite of the Mass.
My point was that in the distribution of Communion,
the current rite is identical to the very earliest
records of the Church. And the use of the Epiclesis
is another example of something in the early Masses
that was reinstated in the current rite.
When I have time, I’ll look into this matter more
extensively to see if I can find other examples of
where the current rite of the Mass corresponds to the
celebration of the Mass before the Tridentine rite
existed.
Art
--- skorsman at theotokos.co.za wrote:
> Hi
>
> It's certainly true that the Chaldean Catholics do
> have the words of
> institution
> as an optional wording; this was added recently, and
> many Catholics are
> returning to the original form without these words.
> So many Chaldeans use the
> liturgy with the words of institution, and many use
> it without them; both are
> valid.
>
> > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of the
> > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> therefore
> > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> Anaphora or
> > Eucharistic Prayer...
>
> "Indispensable" needs obvious clarification - as
> explained, the words do not
> need to be present in a coherent narrative way. In
> the modified form, they
> are,
> just as they are in ours. In the unmodified form of
> the liturgy, they are not.
> They are contained in other forms in that liturgy,
> but not as a particular
> blessing / consecration with the priest saying what
> we are used to hearing him
> say, and not as part of the prayers and blessings at
> the time of consecration.
>
> The CCC quote is interesting - although it expresses
> the Western understanding,
> it also affirms the role of the epiclesis. Probably
> because the CCC was
> designed to be more than just a Western document,
> but instead tried to
> accommodate the Eastern understanding as well. It
> can still be criticised by
> the Eastern Christians - it teaches the Western
> understanding of original sin,
> which is not accepted by most Eastern Catholics and
> Orthodox, and the
> Immaculate Conception, which is a product of the
> Western concept of original
> sin.
>
> [ It's important to realise that we share the
> same faith, but not
> necessarily the same explanations and wording. They
> believe Mary was full of
> grace, and preserved sinless, but a definition that
> says she was free from the
> stain of sin is meaningless because it relies on the
> Western idea of what a
> stain of sin is; the Easterners have no such
> concept. It is possible to define
> one truth in two different ways - the fact that some
> Catholics are free from the
> need to adhere to the concepts of purgatory, the
> Immaculate Conception, original
> sin, transubstantiation, etc as explained by Western
> reasoning, is ample
> evidence that the Church acknowledges this. The
> declaration that the Syrian
> Orthodox and the Catholics share the same faith,
> without them having to renouce
> what they've always taught, and what we've always
> incorrectly labelled
> Monophysism, was a huge step in that direction.
> That the Eastern Catholics are
> free to omit "Filioque" from their creed is
> certainly a sign of a shared faith
> with different expressions. If you listen to what's
> happening behind the
> words, the explanations, the processes, shared truth
> is even clearer. The
> substance of the faith is shared; the accidents -
> wording, form, experience -
> not always. And that can be misleading. It might
> sound downright heretical
> for the East to ignore our explanations of
> transubstiation or the Filioque, if
> we don't take what is meant into account, and focus
> on the words used instead
> (sort of like some extreme forms of Sola Scriptura.)
> ]
>
> Pope John Paul's words don't deny a role for the
> epiclesis; they just rely on
> the Western understanding, without denying the
> Eastern understanding.
>
> The Baltimore Catechism, as with any Western
> catechism, is simply explaining the
> faith in terms of the worldview of those it serves.
> There is nothing wrong with
> that, but none of the above constitute a formal
> definition of faith. If they
> did, the Eastern Catholics would be right out the
> door.
>
> The Western Catholic Church authoritatively teaches
> what you're defending and
> what we both believe; but she also acknowledges as
> valid the understandings and
> expressions of the East. So, in an Eastern church,
> the best is to do as they
> do, and not try to analyse the issue with a Western
> outlook - instead accept,
> believe, and leave the stopwatch at home.
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>:
>
> > Stephen,
> >
> > First of all, the liturgy of the Assyrian Church
> of
> > the East, which is the successor to the
> Nestorians,
> > does NOT even have a meaningful epiclesis.
> >
> > You can read their complete liturgy at
> >
>
http://alumni.cs.ucsb.edu/~evodius/liturgy/mariaddai.htm
> >
> > Second, the Chaldean Catholic Church definitely
> DOES
> > use the words of institution in their Mass at
> >
>
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
> >
> > You won't have any trouble finding it, as it is
> > printed in BOLD for emphasis.
> >
> > As for the Vatican document you mentioned, it
> states
> > in part:
> >
> > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of the
> > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> therefore
> > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> Anaphora or
> > Eucharistic Prayer...
> > AND
> > "...the words of Eucharistic Institution are
> indeed
> > present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in
> a
> > coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather
> in
> > a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated
> in
> > successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and
> > intercession."
> > AND
> > "When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
> > Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
> > Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
> > words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai
> and
> > Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
> > Church of the East."
> >
> > Furthermore, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church
> > states:
> >
> > "In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the
> text),
> > the power of the words and the action of Christ,
> and
> > the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally
> > present under the species of bread and wine
> Christ's
> > body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross
> > once for all.
> > AND
> > "The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament
> are
> > wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing
> of
> > the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest
> pronounces
> > the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added) spoken
> by
> > Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body
> which
> > will be given up for you...This is the cup of my
> > blood...'
> > AND
> > "By the consecration, the transubstantiation of
> the
> > bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ
> is
> > brought about."
> >
> > In addition, Pope John Paul II's 13 March 2005
> letter
> > to priests at
> > http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HTH05.HTM
> > states:
> >
> > I will take as my inspiration the words of
> Eucharistic
> > CONSECRATION (emphasis added), which we say every
> day
> > in persona Christi in order to make present on our
> > altars the sacrifice made once and for all on
> Calvary.
> > These words provide us with illuminating insights
> for
> > priestly spirituality: if the whole Church draws
> life
> > from the Eucharist, all the more then must the
> life of
> > a priest be "shaped" by the Eucharist. So for us,
> the
> > WORDS OF INSTITUTION (emphasis added) must be more
> > than a formula of consecration: they must be a
> > "formula of life".
> >
> > Finally, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism No.4,
> states:
> >
> > 250. Q. How do the priests exercise this power of
> > changing bread and wine into the body and blood of
> > Christ?
> > A. The priests exercise this power of changing
> bread
> > and wine into the body and blood of Christ through
> the
> > words of consecration in the Mass, which are the
> words
> > of Christ: "This is My body; this is My blood."
> >
> > If you want more evidence, please let me know. The
> > supply is limitless.
> >
> > Art
> >
> > --- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Do lay people still take communion back home?
> It's
> > > not something I've ever seen mentioned regarding
> > > modern times. In answer to the argument that
> > > communion was "always" on the tongue, there is
> ample
> > > evidence from the Church Fathers that communion
> was
> > > taken home by laity for sick people - before
> > > communion on the tongue became the norm. In the
> > > East, it's given by spoon, which many in the
> West
> > > have considered to be contrary to "Take and eat
> ...
> > > take and drink."
> > >
> > > I don't think the words used when the priest
> gives
> > > out communion are really such an important issue
> - I
> > > showed 3 different forms (old Roman, new Roman,
> > > Byzantine).
> > >
> > > If we look at tha baptismal formula, there are
> two
> > > standard forms - "I baptise you ..." and "You
> are
> > > baptised ..." Western Catholics use the former,
> and
> > > Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use the latter.
> All
> > > consider both to be valid.
> > >
> > > If we look at the bread used, only the Romans,
> > > Maronites, Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) use
> > > unleavened bread - all the rest in the Catholic
> and
> > > Orthodox world use leavened bread. Today the
> > > customs exist happily side by side; in the past
> it
> > > was an issue to fight over.
> > >
> > > Of far greater concern is the order of the
> > > Eucharistic Prayer - and prior to 1500, the
> > > Mozarabic rite didn't have a formal Eucharistic
> > > Prayer, and was flexible, and only after 1500
> were
> > > the words of institution (This is my Body ...
> This
> > > is my Blood) even required. Even there, there
> is no
> > > agreement on when the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood of Christ. In the West, there is
> > > agreement (but not a formal definition) that it
> > > occurs with the words of institution, which, on
> > > their own, are considered to constitute the
> > > necessary and sufficient sacramental form of the
> > > Eucharist, and my understanding is that
> > > transubstantiation is therefore completed here
> also;
> > > in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) there is
> > > agreement that it is completed with the
> epiclesis
> > > (which comes after the words of institution in
> the
> > > Byzantine and Tridentine rites, but prior to the
> > > words of consecration in the current ordinary
> form.)
> > > Both points of view exist happily side by side
> in
> > > the Catholic Church united by the Pope.
> > >
> > > So to an Eastern Catholic, if the epiclesis
> comes
> > > before the words of institution, the bread and
> wine
> > > are already transformed into the Body and Blood
> of
> > > Christ by the time the Latin priest says "On the
> > > night he was betrayed" (the form used in the
> current
> > > ordinary rite, and the Eastern rites) or "On the
> day
> > > before he suffered" (in the Tridentine Mass.)
> The
> > > epiclesis therefore is placed in a rather
> strange
> > > positon in the current ordinary rite for
> Easterners,
> > > and in the Tridentine and Eastern rites, after
> the
> > > words of institution, which it more comfortable
> for
> > > both sides.
> > >
> > > Ironically, however "essential" the words of
> > > institution (This is my Body ... This is my
> Blood)
> > > may be for the Roman-rite Catholics, they ARE
> > > dispensable in some cases - the Holy Qurbana of
> > > Addai and Mari omits them, and Rome has accepted
> > > this as a valid liturgy used by Catholics today.
>
> > > The reasoning: "the words of the institution of
> the
> > > Eucharist are in fact present in the anaphora of
> > > Addai and Mari, not in the form of a coherent
> > > narration and in a literal way but in a
> eucological
> > > and disseminated manner, that is to say they are
> > > integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving,
> praise
> > > and intercession which follow." [Pontifical
> Council
> > > for Promoting Christian Unity, Guidelines for
> > > Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean
> > > Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, July
> 20,
> > > 2001.]
> > >
> > > Words of institution in green [Underlined
> section =
> > > the only audible words from the priest in the
> > > Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) in the Liturgy of
> St
> > > John Chrysostom.]
> > > Anamnesis in purple
> > > Epiclesis in red
> > > When the Real Presence becomes present in blue
> > >
> > > Note the sequence:
> > > Epiclesis, words of institution, anamnesis =
> current
> > > Mass
> > > Words of institution, anamnesis, epiclesis =
> Eastern
> > > and Tridentine Mass
> > >
> > > In other words, the following is the order of
> our
> > > current Mass [Eucharistic Prayer II] -
> > >
> > > Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all
> > > holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts
> to
> > > make them holy, so that they may become for us
> the
> > > body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. [This
> is
> > > where the bread and wine become the Body and
> Blood
> > > for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > > ...
> > > Before he was given up to death, a death he
> freely
> > > accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks, He
> > > broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and
> said:
> > > Take this, all of you, and eat it;
> > > this is my body which will be given up for you.
> > > When the supper was ended, he took the cup.
> Again he
> > > gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his
> > > disciples, and said:
> > > Take this, all of you, and drink from it;
> > > this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the
> new
> > > and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for
> you
> > > and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do
> this in
> > > memory of me.
> > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > ...
> > > In memory of his death and resurrection, we
> offer
> > > you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving
> > > cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to
> stand in
> > > your presence and serve you. May all of us who
> share
> > > in the body and blood of Christ be brought
> together
> > > in unity by the Holy Spirit.
> > >
> > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order
> is
> > > as follows [Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] -
> > >
> > > Priest (inaudibly): Having come and having
> fulfilled
> > > the divine plan for us, on the night when He was
> > > delivered up, or rather gave Himself up for the
> life
> > > of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure
> and
> > > blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed and
> sanctified
> > > it and, breaking it, gave it to His holy
> disciples
> > > and apostles, saying:
> > > Priest (aloud): Take, eat, this is my body which
> is
> > > broken for you for the remission of sins.
> > > Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after supper,
> He
> > > took the cup, saying:
> > > Priest (aloud): Drink of this all of you; this
> is my
> > > blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for you
> and
> > > for many for the remission of sins.
> > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > ...
> > > Priest (inaudibly): Remembering therefore this
> > > saving commandment, and all that came to pass
> for
> > > our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection
> on
> > > the third day, the ascension into heaven, the
> > > enthronement at the right hand, and the second
> and
> > > glorious coming.
> > > ...
> > > Priest: Offering You these gifts from Your own
> > > gifts, in all and for all. We praise You, we
> bless
> > > You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You,
> Lord
> > > our God.
> > > Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to
> You
> > > this spiritual worship without the shedding of
> > > blood, and we ask, pray and entreat You: send
> down
> > > Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts
> here
> > > offered.
> > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy bread.
> > > Priest: And make this bread the precious Body of
> > > Your Christ. Amen.
> > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy cup.
> > > Deacon: Father, bless them both.
> > > Priest: Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen.
> > > Amen. Amen.
> > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > >
> > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order
> is
> > > as follows [Tridentine Mass] -
> > >
> > > Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in
> sanctas
> > > ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis oculis in
> > > caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem, tibi
> > > gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque
> discipulis
> > > suis, dicens: Accipite et manducate ex hoc
> omnes:
> > > hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis
> tradetur.
> > > (Who, on the day before his Passion, took bread
> in
> > > his holy venerable hands, and looking up to
> heaven
> > > to you, God, his almighty Father, giving you
> thanks,
> > > he blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his
> > > disciples, saying: Take, all of you, and eat of
> it:
> > > for this is my Body, which will be given up for
> > > you).
> > > Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens et
> hunc
> > > praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles
> manus
> > > suas, item tibi gratias agens benedixit,
> deditque
> > > discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et bibite ex
> eo
> > > omnes: his est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et
> > > aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis
> > > effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc facite
> in
> > > meam commemorationem. (Similarly, when supper
> was
> > > ended, taking also this magnificent chalice in
> his
> > > holy venerable hands, giving you thanks in like
> > > manner, he blessed it, and gave it to his
> disciples,
> > > saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from
> it:
> > > for this is the cup of my Blood of the new and
> > > eternal testament, which will be shed for you
> and
> > > for the many for the forgiveness of sins. Do
> this in
> > > memory of me.)
> > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > ...
> > > Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed et
> plebs
> > > tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii tui, Domini
> > > nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab
> inferis
> > > resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae
> > > ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati tuae
> de
> > > tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam
> sanctam,
> > > hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctum vitae
> aeternae et
> > > Calicem salutis perpetuae. (Therefore, Lord, we
> your
> > > servants, and also your holy people, mindful of
> the
> > > so blessed passion of the same Christ, your Son,
> our
> > > Lord, and of his resurrection from the world
> beneath
> > > and his glorious ascension to heaven, offer to
> your
> > > exalted majesty, from what you have bestowed and
> > > given, a pure victim, a holy victim, a stainless
> > > victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the
> > > Chalice of perpetual salvation).
> > > ...
> > > Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube haec
> > > perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime
> > > altare tuum, in conspectu divinae maiestatis
> tuae;
> > > ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione
> > > sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem
> > > sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti et
> gratia
> > > repleamur. (Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen)
> (We
> > > suppliantly beg you, almighty God, bid them to
> be
> > > brought by the hands of your holy Angel to your
> > > altar on high, in the sight of your divine
> majesty,
> > > so that as many of us as will, by this
> participation
> > > of the altar, receive the sacred Body and Blood
> of
> > > your Son may be filled with every heavenly
> blessing
> > > and grace. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen]).
> > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> Body
> > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > >
> > > And then there is the issue of whether the
> epiclesis
> > > is an invocation of the Holy Spirit (current
> Roman
> > > norm, Orthodox), the Father (Tridentine Mass,
> which
> > > requires correction to invoke the Holy Spirit
> for
> > > Orthodox use) or Christ (I found one while
> reading
> > > up for yesterday's post.)
> > >
> > > So my conclusion is that there are far greater
> > > things to worry about than the words used to
> give
> > > communion.
> > >
> > > Depending on the priest, Mass at the local
> cathedral
> > > may or may not include the creed, and communion
> is
> > > often enough by self-intinction with the chalice
> > > left standing on the altar, and the priest
> giving
> > > the Host. Those are far bigger concerns.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Dianne Dawson
> > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> NewAdvent.org
> > > newsletter
> > >
> > >
> > > He also substantiated that at least as far
> back as
> > > the sixth century the words of the priest were
> not a
> > > simple "The Body of Christ." So how far back is
> far
> > > enough? Why go back to the beginning for parts
> of
> > > the Mass and not others. If you take part of
> the
> > > Mass back to the earliest times then you need to
> > > take the whole Mass back. If we do that then
> > > Communion is not received at EVERY Mass. Also,
> > > ordinary people can take Communion back to their
> > > homes to distribute to other people. How far
> back
> > > would you purpose going back and are you willing
> to
> > > accept ALL of the changes that would entail
> > > (remember that the Mass would not be in
> English).
> > >
> > > Dianne
> > >
> > > Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > You will note that Stephen substantiated my
> > > statement
> > > that the distribution of Communion in the
> > > current rite
> > > of the Mass is authentic to the early
> Chruch,
> > > while
> > > the Tridentine rite is NOT:
> > >
> > > In early times the words used by the priest
> in
> > > giving
> > > Holy Communion were, for the species of
> bread,
> > > "Corpus
> > > Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the
> > > receiver
> > > answered, "Amen."
> > >
> > > If you need further proof from other
> > > authoratative
> > > sources, please let me know.
> > >
> > > Art
> > >
> > > --- Dianne Dawson wrote:
> > >
> > > > Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the wonderful and extensive
> > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > > > Dianne
> > > >
> > > > Stephen Korsman wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Well, there were quiet moments, but the
> church
> > > was
> > > > a very small one, and very well designed
> > > > accoustically, even though it was quite a
> > > primitive
> > > > building, being very rural. It was a
> > > Latin-rite
> > > > building; the congregation was mixed
> religion
> > > > because there were no Orthodox priests in
> the
> > > area -
> > > > this was their visiting Catholicos from
> India.
> > > So
> > > > most could be heard; and the clouds of
> incense
> > > were
> > > > thick, but didn't mask the view - not
> quite.
> > > >
> > > > In terms of not hearing what the priest
> does,
> > > the
> > > > Byzantines are worse - you don't even see
> the
> > > priest
> > > > during the consecration. I've never been
> to
> > > their
> > > > liturgies, but there are plenty of
> bracketed
> > > "(in a
> > > > low voice)" statements throughout the copy
> of
> > > the
> > > > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've
> put
> > > it
> > > > in my Google Docs -
> > > >
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j
> > > ... I
> > > > have a nice PDF in Greek and English if
> anyone
> > > wants
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding the words said by the priest
> when
> > > > communion was received, I've done a bit of
> > > > searching, and can only find the following
> (on
> > > the
> > > > Melkite Catholic site) -
> > > >
> > > > In early times the words used by the
> priest in
> > > > giving Holy Communion were, for the
> species of
> > > > bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of
> Christ" -
> > > to
> > > > which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and
> for
> > > the
> > > > species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum
> > > Saluti" -
> > > > "The Blood of Christ, the cup of
> Salvation" -
> > > to
> > > > which "Amen" was also answered. About the
> time
> > > of
> > > > Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the
> > > form had
> > > > changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu
> > > Christi
> > > > conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or
> our
> > > Lord
> > > > Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to
> which
> > > the
> > > > receiver would respond, as before "Amen."
> With
> > > > Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find
> the
> > > form,
> > > > "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ
> > > preserve you
> > > > unto life everlasting."
> > > > -
> http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html
> > > >
> > > > Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> custodiat
> > > animam
> > > > meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. - Tridentine
> > > Mass,
> > > > Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
> > > > - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
> > > > - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
> > > > - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)
> > > >
> > > > Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu
> Christi
> > > > custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam.
> Amen.
> > > > - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most
> > > recent
> > > > form, as far as I can work out, but dates
> to
> > > the
> > > > 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they
> > > intinct, or
> > > > that this refers to the priest only.)
> > > > - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)
> > > >
> > > > Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video,
> which I
> > > > cannot differentiate from the Tridentine
> Mass,
> > > > having never been to either:
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao
> > > >
> > > > In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using
> > > > leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite),
> the
> > > > communicant says "Amen":
> > > > [The Celebrant administers the Body and
> Blood
> > > > from the Paten, saying:]
> > > > [From the Sacrament of Baptism:
> > > > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> > > Christ be
> > > > to thee unto life eternal.
> > > > R. Amen.]
> > > > [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
> > > > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> > > Christ, the
> > > > Son of the living and
> > > > most high God, be to thee unto life
> eternal.
> > > > R. Amen.]
> > > > [The Chalice is administered with the
> words:
> > > > May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be
> to
> > > thee
> > > > unto life eternal.
> > > > R. Amen.
> > > > Priest: Corpus Christ
> > > > Response: Amen
> > > > - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date,
> but
> > > > suppression of the rite was attempted in
> > > 1060.)
> > > >
> > > > And most different of all, the text of the
> > > Divine
> > > > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the
> > > following:
> > > > The servant of God (Name) receives the
> Body
> > > and
> > > > Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins
> and
> > > eternal
> > > > life.
> > > >
> > > > God bless,
> > > > Stephen
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Art Kelly
> > > > To: Apologetics Group
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > NewAdvent.org
> > > > newsletter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > Did the celebrant turn his back to the
> > > congregation
> > > > and speak in a deliberately low voice so
> no
> > > one
> > > > could
> > > > see or hear what was happening on the
> altar?
> > > >
> > > > Art
> > > >
> > > > --- Stephen Korsman
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Dianne Dawson
> > > > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > > NewAdvent.org
> > > > > newsletter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If someone had never been to a Mass (in
> any
> > > > > language) then that one might fly,
> otherwise
> > > it's
> > > > a
> > > > > weak argument. If you were traveling out
> of
> > > the
> > > > > country would you avoid going to Mass
> just
> > > because
> > > > > you didn't understand every word the
> priest
> > > spoke?
> > > >
> > > > > I doubt it because you are familiar with
> the
> > > > format
> > > > > and what is happening and when.
> Actually,
> > > that is
> > > > > one of the best reason to have the Mass
> in
> > > Latin.
> > > > > There I must agree. I've been to a Novus
> > > Ordo
> > > > Latin
> > > > > Mass, which was quite comprehendable
> even
> > > though I
> > > > > only had 2 years of school Latin at the
> > > time.
> > > > I've
> > > > > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't
> > > understand at
> > > > > all, but I knew what was going on. I've
> even
> > > to a
> > > > > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not
> > > like
> > > > ours,
> > > > > but Eastern rite, and they have their
> > > Catholic
> > > > > equivalents. Even there, I could follow,
> > > even
> > > > > though it was a rite I'd never been to,
> and
> > > in a
> > > > > language I'd never heard.
> > > > >
> > > > > God bless,
> > > > > Stephen
> > > > > --
> > > > > Stephen Korsman
> > > > > skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> > > > > The Theotokos Website
> > > > > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed
> > > > > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed
> > > > >
> > > > > IC | XC
> > > > > ---------
> > > > > NI | KA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Like a deer that longs for running waters
> so
> > > my soul
> > > > longs for you, O God.
> > > >
> > > > Ps 42:1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to
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> > >
> > >
> > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Like a deer that longs for running waters so
> my
> > > soul longs for you, O God.
> > > Ps 42:1
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > (703) 904-3763 home
> > (703) 396-6956 work
> > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
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