[Gathnet] To anyone who has an answer

[Jonathan Gathman]

Oops, a mistatement...

"God establishes that man is sinful, and cannot be saved." should be 
"... needs to be saved"


Jonathan Gathman wrote:
>   One has to demonstrate that Scriptures are divine rather than human in 
> origin first.  I had written up a larger answer, starting with 
> Manuscript, Archeology, Prophecy and Statistics but Stuart pointed out 
> on a phone that you know about all that, so I dropped that.
> 
>   When one talks about an individual's contributions, especially in 
> terms of Moses, Peter, Paul, etc, one needs to check several things. 
> Were they Eye-witnesses? Being an eye-witness was a mark of being an 
> Apostle.  All the disciples were eye-witnesses to the events and the 
> person of Jesus.  Paul was at the very least an eye-witness to the 
> events, and discusses this issue himself, calling himself "one as is 
> born out of due season".  It is clear that there were a lot of 
> interactions between the Apostles and Paul, and even disagreements, Paul 
> stating that he criticized Peter publicly for accepting gentiles 
> (according to God's teaching vision of "the sheet") when in the presence 
> of gentiles, but shunning them in the presence of Jews.  The Apostles 
> had plenty of opportunity to disclaim what Paul was preaching, but 
> clearly did not, but rather sent him out.
> 
>   None of the New Testament books conflict with what is taught in the 
> Old Testament, rather it shows the continuing plan of God, who didn't 
> just drop His Salvation plan unprepared.  One can clearly see that 
> first, God establishes that man is sinful, and cannot be saved.  Tons of 
> evidence and observable behavior here.  All the Old Testament rules and 
> ceremonies function to show both that God expects holiness and 
> godliness, but that man cannot accomplish this.  (Romans 8). He then, 
> early in the Old Testament establishes that He will send a Messiah, and 
> also that a payment of blood is required for the remission of sins.  So 
> that by the time Jesus arrives, there are numerous prophecies that Jesus 
> fulfills.
> 
>   Finally, one can easily see that Jesus, in forming the disciples into 
> a group, and sending them out is clearly expecting them to represent Him 
> when He leaves.  He gave them the authority, as well as helping them 
> through difficult times.
> 
>   There is one more point I'd like to make about Biblical witnesses. 
> Contrary to any document that I can think of, Biblical witnesses declare 
> the shortcomings of the characters presented.  Typical figures of the 
> ancient and modern worlds always exaggerate their accomplishments and 
> remove, if possible, their faults.  The only way you find the faults in 
> some people is to ask their enemies.
> 
>   However, consider the Bible. Name any biblical figure (other than 
> God), and the more important the accomplishments, the more the bible 
> also states where they sinned.  David, the greatest king, has his 
> adulterous conduct, and it's consequences recorded for eternity.  Moses 
> disobeys God in speaking to the Rock, and is denied access to the 
> promised land. Peter, the head of the church after Jesus ascends not 
> only denied Christ before the crucifixion, but couldn't quite follow 
> God's instructions regarding gentile believers.  Paul doesn't gloss over 
> his antagonism for christians, but calls himself the chief of sinners, 
> choosing, instead, to glory in the forgiveness and grace accorded to him 
> by God.  Even Jesus, though He never sinned, showed anxiety and extreme 
> distress in the Garden before the events of Passion week unfolded.  This 
> candor lends great credibility and confidence that Biblical writers are 
> indeed telling the truth.
> 
> 
> SKM wrote:
> 
>> Elissa Gathman wrote:
>>
>>> I was recently in a conversation with my grandmother who is an 
>>> atheist. A question arose that I could not answer. We were talking 
>>> about the book of Romans, and I  was explaining how God spoke/speaks 
>>> through Paul to us. But then she asked how I know that it really is 
>>> God speaking to us. How do we know that it's not Paul alone? Sure we 
>>> can back up stories written in the bible through architectural 
>>> findings. But the bible isn't all stories, how do we back up the 
>>> parts of the bible that speak simply of gods love, and his 
>>> commandments to us?
>>>    Lissa
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Elissa,
>>    This is a very commonly raised objection: you have been asked to 
>> prove that this is God's word. There are many, many ways to approach 
>> this. Your father and aunt Beth could probably answer better than 
>> most. Another good philosophical source is C. S. Lewis' _Mere 
>> Christianity_.
>>
>>    But here goes one try. Be aware that no approach is completely, 
>> proof-positive certain.
>> 1. Faith: faith is believing something /without /proof. Many 
>> born-again Christians will tell you that they know God in their heart, 
>> and that his life in them is proof for their faith.
>> 2. Evidence: Although you, Elissa, and I were not with Paul when he 
>> wrote these words, there were indeed lots of witnesses who were there. 
>> Many of them had seen Jesus and his miracles: they had, in effect, 
>> seen and heard God. These witnesses could have said "What Paul says is 
>> not from God - it is bunk." but they did not. Paul's writings are very 
>> widely copied in ancient manuscripts, and were taken by these very 
>> witnesses of Jesus for what Paul claimed them to be.
>> 3. Consistency: the teaching of Paul in Romans is consistent with the 
>> old Testament and with the life and teachings of Jesus as recorded in 
>> the Gospels.
>> 4. Experience: The teachings have born the test of time. Have you 
>> noticed that those who follow the Bible's commands (including Paul's) 
>> are different from the "crowd"? They are kind, humble, helpful, 
>> loving, and in every way admirable.
>>
>>    Let's turn this around: How does ANYONE "know" whether any ancient 
>> manuscript is true? The Bible has a cloud of witnesses. Not proof, but 
>> pretty good.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Uncle Scott
>>
>>
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> 

-- 
Jonathan Gathman
"Think, Speak and Do Well"
Urquhart Family Crest