[Apologetics] Re: Stuart on Catholic and Protestant Views on Justification

[Art Kelly]

Dianne,

I hope your fingers feel better already. Please type
some more when you can.

As Stuart asked, exactly WHAT did he say that was
incorrect?

Perhaps it is something he didn't say that is
bothering you. Since I've spent many hours talking to
Stuart on justification (and other issues), I know his
views very well. Accordingly, maybe I've mentally
"filled in the blanks" to what he wrote in his e-mail
message.

Of course, Stuart was not writing an article on
justification--just a paragraph or so. Perhaps he left
out some "buzzwords" that you wanted to see.

Nevertheless, on an overall basis, I think he fully
understands Catholic doctrine on justification and
explains it very well.

See Stuart's course outline on Roman Catholics and
Evangelicals: Justification at
http://gathman.org/class/just.html

The overall outline for Roman Catholics and
Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences is at
http://gathman.org/class/

Art

--- Dianne Dawson <rcdianne at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Art,
>  
> This is one place that we will have to agree to
> disagree.  You and Stuart may thinks he understands
> Catholic doctrine on justification but, according to
> his posts, he sure doesn't know how to explain it to
> other Protestants.  It is much better NOT to have
> Catholic doctrine explained then to have it
> explained inaccurately.
>  
> Stuart, instead of inserting comments in the middle
> of my sentences you should read and comment on the
> entire sentence/paragraph.  Then it would make more
> sense to you.
>  
> I have had my say on this until my fingers hurt from
> typing. And I don't intend to comment further (of
> which I'm sure that you're very glad).
>  
> Dianne
>  
> 
> 
> Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've discussed this with Stuart in great detail many
> times in the past. I know that he fully and
> completely
> understands Catholic doctrine on justification.
> 
> Stuart is certainly aware that it requires actual
> grace for anyone to repent of a sin or to perform an
> act of charity. Nonetheless, we have free will and
> can
> disregard the graces which God provides.
> 
> Verly few, if any, Protestants would say that
> charitable acts are not REQUIRED of a Christian. No
> Catholic thinks that charitable acts done without
> faith and the requiste intention of pleasing God
> will
> EARN salvation.
> 
> Catholics and Lutherans finally figured out that
> they
> were saying essentially the same things for 500
> years.
> 
> Art
> 
> --- Dianne Dawson wrote:
> 
> > Stuart,
> > 
> > You are dead wrong in your explanation of the
> > Catholic doctrine of salvation. Contrary to your
> > statement " but to a Catholic, we are saved "by
> > works, and not by faith alone" (James)" Catholic
> > doctrine says that we are saved by God's grace
> > through faith in Jesus Christ. It is that faith
> > that spurs us to action (works). Specifically,
> from
> > the JOINT DECLARATION 
> > ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, By grace alone,
> > in faith in Christ's saving work and not because
> of
> > any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and
> > receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts
> while
> > equipping and calling us to good works (para 15).
> >
>
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
> > 
> > Dead works are those works that are done for the
> > purpose of getting something out of it
> (recognition,
> > praise, self-esteem, etc.). Living works are those
> > that are done because of our love of God. Living
> > works can only be performed with the help of God's
> > grace.
> > 
> > I think it's great that you can use Protestant
> > "speak" to explain Catholic doctrine to
> Protestants
> > but please get your facts straight on the doctrine
> > first. Otherwise you do more harm than good.
> > 
> > http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm
> > 
> > http://www.mark-shea.com/salvation.html
> > 
> > Dianne
> > 
> > 
> > "Stuart D. Gathman" wrote:
> > Here is my answer to a question about Catholic
> > doctrine, posted for
> > your interest and criticism. I am pretty sure I
> > nailed this FAQ, but 
> > I could always be wrong. First the question, then
> my
> > answer.
> > My answer concentrates on addressing the root
> > concern:
> > 
> > The recent context for this was that we showed a
> > video on the life of Pope
> > John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity
> (based
> > on the book Great Souls
> > by David Aikman). This particular person felt it
> > would confuse our
> > nonChristian international students on the matter
> of
> > the Gospel to hold up
> > Pope John Paul as a good and godly man when the
> > "official position" of the
> > RCC, according to the Council of Trent said that
> > salvation/justification was
> > not through faith alone, but works as well as
> faith.
> > 
> > On Mon May 9, 2005, DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:
> > Subject: Q about Catholicism
> > 
> > Stuart,
> > I have had a recent conversation with one of our
> > TIPS helpers from a
> > Bible Church nearby who has expressed some
> strongly
> > held "anti-catholic"
> > sentiments, based on the boldened quote below
> > related to the Council of
> > Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your
> > class on
> > Catholic/Protestant issues some years ago and
> would
> > appreciate any
> > response you might offer concerning the following:
> > 
> > Is the official RC position still what is stated
> > below or has it made any
> > changes in the last 450 years, specifically
> related
> > to:
> > * justification by works as well as by faith
> > * efficacy of relics, indulgences, and the
> > veneration of the Virgin
> > Mary and the saints (efficacy to what end?)
> > * tradition is coequal to Scripture as a source of
> > spiritual knowledge
> > * and the interpretation of the Bible is the sole
> > right of the church
> > If the official position hasn't changed, it this
> > what is still taught
> > post Vatican II in most Catholic churches? or is
> it
> > a more "evangelical
> > message"?
> > 
> > and Finally, the word "evangelical" is used
> > frequently to describe John
> > Paul II. What is meant by its use as it might
> differ
> > from a Protestant
> > use of the word?
> > 
> > The recent context for this was that we showed a
> > video on the life of
> > Pope John Paul II as a Crusader for Human Dignity
> > (based on the book
> > Great Souls by David Aikman). This particular
> person
> > felt it would
> > confuse our nonChristian international students on
> > the matter of the
> > Gospel to hold up Pope John Paul as a good and
> godly
> > man when the
> > "official position" of the RCC, according to the
> > Council of Trent said
> > that salvation/justification was not through faith
> > alone, but works as
> > well as faith.
> > 
> > Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
> > David Case
> > 
> > 
> > The Council of Trent, the 19th ecumenical council
> of
> > the Roman Catholic
> > church, was held at Trent in northern Italy
> between
> > 1545 and 1563. It
> > marked a major turning point in the efforts of the
> > Catholic church to
> > respond to the challenge of the Protestant
> > Reformation and formed a key
> > part of the Counter-Reformation. The need for such
> a
> > council had long
> > been perceived by certain church leaders, but
> > initial attempts to
> > organize it were opposed by Francis I of France,
> who
> > feared it would
> > strengthen Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, and by
> the
> > popes themselves, who
> > feared a revival of Conciliarism. The council
> > eventually met during three
> > separate periods (1545-47, 1551-52, 1562-63) under
> > the leadership of
> > three different popes (Paul III, Julius III, Pius
> > IV). All of its decrees
> > were formally confirmed by Pope Pius IV in 1564.
> > 
> > In the area of religious doctrine, the council
> > refused any concessions to
> > the Protestants and, in the process, crystallized
> > and codified Catholic
> > dogma far more than ever before. It directly
> opposed
> > Protestantism by
> > reaffirming the existence of seven sacraments,
> > transubstantiation,
> > purgatory, the necessity of the priesthood, and
> > justification by works as
> > well as by faith. Clerical celibacy and
> monasticism
> > were maintained, and
> > decrees were issued in favor of the efficacy of
> > relics, indulgences, and
> > the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints.
> > Tradition was declared
> > coequal to Scripture as a source of spiritual
> > knowledge, and the sole
> > right of the church to interpret the Bible was
> > asserted.
> > 
> > To: stuart at bmsi.com
> > Subject: RE: Q about Catholicism
> > 
> > Stuart,
> > Thanks for such a prompt and helpful reply, and
> yes,
> > I think another class
> > would be worthwhile. David
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stuart D. Gathman [mailto:stuart at bmsi.com]
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:45 PM
> > To: David Case
> > Subject: Re: Q about Catholicism
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 2 May 2005 DCase at trurochurch.org wrote:
> > 
> > > Stuart,
> > > I have had a recent conversation with one of our
> > TIPS helpers from a Bible
> > > Church nearby who has expressed some strongly
> help
> > "anti-catholic"
> > > sentiments, based on the boldened quote below
> > related to the Council of
> > > Trent's decrees. I enjoyed the sessions of your
> > class on Catholic/Protestant
> > > issues some years ago and would appreciate any
> > response you might offer
> > > concerning the following:
> > > 
> > > Is the official RC position still what is stated
> > below or has it made any
> > > changes in the last 450 years, specifically
> > related to:
> > 
> > a) The position hasn't changed.
> > 
> > b) It doesn't mean what he thinks it does. Let's
> > take the first example:
> > 
> > > * justification by works as well as by faith
> > 
> > "Faith" means something like "intellectual ascent"
> > to a Catholic, as in "I
> > believe airplanes can fly, but I don't trust
> them".
> > To a Protestant, "faith"
> > means trust, as in "Not only do I believe
> airplanes
> > can fly, but I'm getting on
> > one now to go visit my friend." The Protestant
> > slogan "Sola fide": "faith
> > alone", sounds like lame faith to a Catholic.
> > Indeed, the book of James says,
> > "Faith without works is dead, being alone." On the
> > other hand, the Catholic
> > formula "faith plus works" sounds like self
> > righteousness to a Protestant.
> > 
> > You see, both agree on the fundamental problem
> > facing humanity: original sin.
> > This doesn't mean that we can't do good things. It
> > means that not only are we
> > unable to reverse entropy and defeat physical
> death,
> > but our moral character is
> > also decaying, so that if its slow decline is not
> > reversed, our spirits will
> > eventually end up as twisted and deformed shadows
> of
> > what we were created to be
> > - i.e. evil. Determining to do good can produce
> > temporary improvements and
> > delay the inevitable, like diet and exercise for
> the
> > body. But ultimately,
> > without Divine intervention we are doomed.
> > 
> > You see, "works" can have two meanings also. There
> > are "dead works", those
> > well meaning but ultimately futile attempts to be
> a
> > better person by trying
> > harder, and there are "living works", those works
> > inspired by God, "which he
> > has before ordained that we should walk in them"
> > (Ephesians) according to His
> > Grace. As you might guess, Catholics use the word
> > "works" to mean "living
> > works", and Protestants use the word to mean "dead
> > works". Hence, to a
> > Protestant, we are saved "by grace through faith,
> > not of works, lest any man
> > should boast" (Ephesians), but to a Catholic, we
> are
> > saved "by works, and not
> > by faith alone" (James). Both statements are in
> the
> > Bible, and amount to the
> > same thing once you understand what kind of faith
> > and what kind of works we are
> > talking about.
> > 
> > =====
> > 
> > So, translating "saved by faith and works" to more
> > neutral language
> > would give something like, "saved by accepting the
> > truth and demonstrating
> > a living faith".
> > 
> > Next up, the meaning of "saved". :-) Is it time
> for
> > another class?
> > 
> > -- 
> > Stuart D. Gathman 
> > Business Management Systems Inc. Phone: 703
> 591-0911
> > Fax: 703 591-6154
> > "Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" -
> > background song for
> > a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go
> from
> > here?" commercial.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Apologetics mailing list
> > Apologetics at gathman.org
> > http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> > 
> > 
> > Like a deer that longs for running waters so my
> soul
> > longs for you, O God.
> > 
> > Ps 42:1
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
> ART KELLY, ATM-S
> 13524 Brightfield Lane 
> Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360 
> (703) 904-3763 home
> (301) 443-2953 work
> arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> art.kelly at cox.net
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul
> longs for you, O God.
> 
> Ps 42:1
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
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ART KELLY, ATM-S
13524 Brightfield Lane 
Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360 
(703) 904-3763 home
(301) 443-2953 work
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
ArtK135 at Netscape.net
art.kelly at cox.net