[Apologetics] Q about Catholicism

[Stuart D. Gathman]

On Wed, 11 May 2005, Dianne Dawson wrote:

> I have had my say on this until my fingers hurt from typing. And I don't
> intend to comment further (of which I'm sure that you're very glad).

No, actually I appreciate criticism more than yea sayers, I just need some
details to improve.  However, just knowing that it is "all wrong" to you
at least tells me there is a problem.

Let me guess that perhaps you are complaining about the lack of an
explicit mention of Grace.  When complaining about Catholics,
Protestants often say, "Well, they understand Sola Gratia, but
not Sola Fide".  So Grace is a given when addressing the
questioners complaint about "justification by faith plus works".

Please don't tell me that "faith plus works" is not Catholic doctrine.
Not only is it in Trent: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by
faith alone, so as to understand that nothing besides
faith is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of
justification . . . let him be anathema", but it is in James: "Therefore a
man is justified by works, and not by faith alone", much to the consternation
of Protestant apologists determined to prove that Catholicism is
a cult.  Note that in both of the above, faith means "intellectual ascent".

> Catholic doctrine of salvation. Contrary to your statement " but to a
> Catholic, we are saved "by works, and not by faith alone" (James)" Catholic

It is not my statement, but the Apostle James, and the Council of Trent.
If Catholics start repudiating Scripture and Councils, I'll have to
agree they *are* a cult!  [ :-) :-) Joke. Joke. Don't get hyper.  The
antecedent is expected to be false! ]

> doctrine says that we are saved by God's grace
> through faith in Jesus Christ. It is that faith
> that spurs us to action (works). Specifically, from
> the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, By grace alone, in
> faith in Christ's saving work and not because of
> any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and
> receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while
> equipping and calling us to good works (para 15).

That is the Ephesians formulation, where faith means "belief and trust
evidenced by action".  The JOINT DECLARATION uses the meaning of faith
emphasized by Protestant tradition in that passage because it is reconciling
the formulations.

The whole point of my reply was that faith means "intellectual ascent"
in some contexts (like James and Trent), and "belief and trust" in other
contexts (like Ephesians and the Joint Declaration).

As far as I can see, you have reiterated what I said, but yet you
say I got it all wrong.  So help me out.

You describe the difference between dead and living works like this:

> Dead works are those works that are done for the purpose of getting something
> out of it (recognition, praise, self-esteem, etc.). Living works are those
> that are done because of our love of God. Living works can only be performed
> with the help of God's grace.

Isn't that what I said?  If not, how did my statement differ?  Here is
my description for comparison:

> > You see, "works" can have two meanings also. There are "dead works", those
> > well meaning but ultimately futile attempts to be a better person by trying
> > harder, and there are "living works", those works inspired by God, "which
> > he has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians) according
> > to His Grace. 

> I think it's great that you can use Protestant
> "speak" to explain Catholic doctrine to Protestants
> but please get your facts straight on the doctrine
> first. Otherwise you do more harm than good.

Which fact did I screw up?

-- 
	      Stuart D. Gathman <stuart at bmsi.com>
    Business Management Systems Inc.  Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.