[Apologetics] USA Today: Rite of baptism trickles away

Fri Apr 14 06:55:24 EDT 2006

Good points, Art!  Marty, you hit the nail on the head!  

Marty asked: "The question is: where do we get bishops who can draw a line in the sand? There's doesn't seem to be anybody around."

Oh boy, don't get me started, especially on Good Friday!  There are a few good bishops around, ones that clearly draw the line, Bruskewitz in Lincoln, NE comes to mind as an example.  We need a couple of hundred like Fr. O'Brien, Bishop Fulton Sheen, and Mother Angelica!  Yeah, Mother Angelica.  That little old lady nun has more pepper in her than so many of our bishops.  She is clear about Truth, Tradition and Doctrine; nobody has to wonder where she stands.  People don't have to like it or agree with it, but at least with her you know what's what and she's consistent, not changing with each shift in the wind.

But then again, I'm likely preaching to the choir.

Bret
-----Original Message-----
>From: Marty Rothwell <martyr225 at cox.net>
>Sent: Apr 14, 2006 3:19 AM
>To: Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>, Apologetics Group <apologetics at gathman.org>, Jim Murphy <jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>, Michele Allen <arochaallen at juno.com>
>Subject: RE: [Apologetics] USA Today: Rite of baptism trickles away
>
>I'm all for what you say, Art.  I know that when I dumb-down my classes,
>only dummies start taking them.  The thinkers are not interested in a
>watered-down class, only the lazy and the dummies.  When I make the class
>harder, then the motivated people start coming and the lazy and dummies drop
>out.  It is the exact same thing with the Church.  If we water it down, then
>(surprise!) the only people in the pews are watered-down Catholics!  If we
>make Catholicism mean something, then the watered-down Catholics become
>Methodists and the on-fire Methodists become Catholic.
>
>The question is: where do we get bishops who can draw a line in the sand?
>There's doesn't seem to be anybody around.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: apologetics-admin at gathman.org [mailto:apologetics-admin at gathman.org]On
>Behalf Of Art Kelly
>Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 2:19 AM
>To: Apologetics Group; Jim Murphy; Michele Allen
>Subject: [Apologetics] USA Today: Rite of baptism trickles away
>
>This article in USA Today claims that baptisms are
>declining in mainstream Protestant, fundamentalist
>Protestant, and--get this!--Catholic Churches.
>
>The article states that, while membership in the
>Catholic Church has greatly increased, baptisms have
>not.
>
>Rite of baptism trickles away
>Updated 4/12/2006 9:38 PM ET
>By Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY
>
>Every month there's a cheering, weeping,
>air-horn-tooting celebration at First Assembly of God
>in North Little Rock, when the Rev. Rod Loy immerses
>new believers in the baptismal tank.
>
>"This is a sign that someone understands the ideas of
>sin and Christ's sacrifice and willfully chooses to be
>a lifelong follower of Jesus," says the pastor. "So we
>celebrate it big."
>
>For believers, baptism is modeled on their savior, who
>the Bible says waded into the water to consecrate
>himself to God.
>
>They may be sprinkled, washed from a flowing pitcher
>or immersed, as faith rituals vary. But all forms
>point to beliefs: rebirth in faith, salvation from
>sin, acceptance of God's promises and charges.
>
>For parents who bring a baby before their church,
>baptism is a pledge of their faith, a shield against
>evil, a wrapping of communal arms around a defenseless
>soul.
>
>For Christians of all denominations, "even if they
>never darkened the door of a church any other time in
>their life ... there's a tendency to hold onto this
>life-cycle marker," says the Rev. Paul Sullins, a
>sociologist at Catholic University in Washington, D.C.
>
>Yet, this Easter, the holy day of resurrection,
>statistics find Americans slowly drifting away from
>the ancient baptismal ritual.
>
>The Catholic Church has more than doubled in size in
>the past half-century, but its rate of infant baptism
>steadily has fallen, Sullins says.
>
>Methodists and Lutherans have seen both baptisms and
>their membership numbers slide for years.
>
>Even Loy's denomination, the Assemblies of God, which
>has had a boom in membership since 1980, saw its
>annual baptism numbers peak in 1997, then inch
>downward.
>
>The Southern Baptist Convention has seen a
>half-century decline in baptisms and stalled growth in
>membership.
>
>The full article is at
>http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-04-12-baptism-trend_x.htm
>
>I would seriously question the methodology for
>determining the growth in Catholic Church membership.
>Based on the number registered in parishes?
>Self-identified persons in polls? Or what?
>
>My own take is that, for Catholics, parents who do not
>have their children baptized are NOT really Catholics
>and should NOT be counted as Catholics.
>
>As an aside, beware of polls that purport to show what
>Catholics think about an issue. Unless the persons
>claiming to be Catholics are then screened (How often
>do you go to Church?), answers can be very deceptive.
>
>I may ask my pastor and a couple of other priests if
>they think there has been any decline in baptisms. I
>doubt it, but if there have been, it is because the
>Church has sometimes failed to "lay down the law"
>regarding what it takes to be a Catholic.
>
>Without relating this to baptism specifically, I
>wonder if, in the past few decades, the Catholic
>Church has become too much of "a big tent."
>Interestingly, just before he become Pope, Cardinal
>Ratzinger expressed the view that the Church needs to
>get SMALLER.
>
>Perhaps the Church will start to "draw a line in the
>sand," and make it clear that, while all are welcome,
>anyone who wishes to be a Catholic must believe a, b,
>and c; may not believe c, d, and e; must do f, g, and
>h; and may not do i, j, and k.
>
>Those who don't want to meet the requirements for
>being a Catholic should try another religion.
>
>To a large degree, they already have.
>
>Coming up on Easter, both Catholic and Protestant
>churches will see a TREMENDOUS number of persons who
>come to services who do not normally attend.
>
>The good news is they still come AT LEAST once or
>twice a year. They haven't totally lost their faith.
>The bad news is that they ONLY come once or twice a
>year. Whatever part of their faith they still have is
>very nominal.
>
>These Easter Catholics and Protestants are not
>practicing their faiths and, for polling purposes,
>should not be counted as members of the denominations
>to which they still identify.
>
>I'm certainly not advocating a Church of Christian
>superstars. In come ways, the Church can be thought of
>as a spiritual hospital, helping people to overcome
>sin and obtain spiritual health.
>
>But to obtain salvation, a person must WANT to take up
>their cross and follow Jesus.
>
>As far as I can tell, the decline in weekly attendance
>of mainstream Protestant denominations which are
>Christian Lite (you know what I mean) is NO LESS than
>the declines in fundamentalist (hard shell)
>Protestants and Catholics (who are, to some degree, in
>the middle).
>
>So, any theory that goes, "Well, maybe we can get them
>back if we soft peddle our doctrines on (fill in the
>blank)" does NOT appear to work.
>
>Maybe there's a place for some Protestant churches
>which advertise, "Open doors and open minds." On
>second thought, what good is a Christian church that
>ignores the plain words of the Bible?
>
>I'd like to think Catholic churches would actually
>stand strongly for immutable doctrines and not be so
>afraid of offending anyone.
>
>Art
>
>
>  ART KELLY, ATM-S
>  13524 Brightfield Lane
>  Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
>  (703) 904-3763 home
>  (703) 396-6956 work
>  arthurkelly at yahoo.com
>  art.kelly at cox.net
>  ArtK135 at Netscape.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Apologetics mailing list
>Apologetics at gathman.org
>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
>
>_______________________________________________
>Apologetics mailing list
>Apologetics at gathman.org
>http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
>
><!DSPAM:10A9746512A271044925698963>
>