[Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church
Art Kelly
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
Tue Oct 31 21:38:39 EST 2006
Stephen,
For someone to claim that Joseph of Arimatahea did
missionary work and started the Christian Church in
England would require some proof.
Exactly what is the proof?
Furthermore, what relationship could such a Joseph of
Armiatahea Church have to the Anglican Church, which
left the Catholic Church when King Henry VIII wanted
to divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boelyn?
I'd bet Henry never heard of a Joseph of Armiatahea
Church. The line of succession/revolt from the
Catholic Church to the Anglican Church is beyond
question.
Now, some/many/all Eastern Orthodox may think their
church was the original Christian Church. For
instance, the website for the so-called Ecumenical
Patriarch of Constantinople at
http://www.ec-patr.gr/list/index.php?lang=en
attempts to show a Catholic-like unbroken line of
succession from St. Andrew to Bartholomew.
This is absurd.
An article in the Catholic Encyclopedia about
Constantinople at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm
states in part:
"Traces of Christianity do not appear here before the
end of the second or the beginning of the third
century...The first historically known Bishop of
Byzantium is St. Metrophanes (306-314), though the see
had perhaps been occupied during the third century."
I may write an article about the Eastern Orthodox
spurious line of succesion, but one name jumped out at
me right away. They claim Eusebius of Nicomedia from
339 to 342. This bishop was a notorious Arian!
As of the idea of ancient Baptists, it fails even the
most elementary tests.
None of the groups claimed--Donatists, Novations,
Montanists, Paulicians and Waldenses, Albigenses,
Waldenses, and Anabaptists--were similar to one
another and all had tremendous differences between
themselves and Baptists.
To their credit, the Anglicans do not claim any
independent apostolic succession outside of the
Catholic Church. Whoever made these claims in the name
of Anglicanism cannot be serious.
Art
--- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I've seen this argument before. It's not so much
> about the Anglican
> denomination existing prior to Henry VIII, but a
> claim that the British were
> true Christians (due to Joseph of Arimathea's
> missionary work, and some
> include Jesus himself before his ministry began as
> recorded in the Gospels)
> before being corrupted by Catholic influence.
> Specific examples being the
> corruption of true Christianity in Ireland by St
> Patrick (or the corruption
> of St Patrick's true Sabbath-keeping non-Trinitarian
> Christianity by later
> Catholic input) and the corruption of true
> Christianity in England by the
> arrival of St Augustine of Canterbury, their first
> bishop.
>
> It's a theory well-liked by the British Israel
> crowd, who believe that the
> Britons are the true descendants of Ephraim and/or
> Manasseh, the two sons of
> Joseph (see Genesis 48.) The other "lost" tribes of
> Israel are located in
> various places in Europe, Dan usually being linked
> to the Irish and/or the
> Danish. Only Judah and Benjamin remained as the
> kingdom of Judah, the rest
> formed the kingdom of Israel (see the Jeroboam, king
> of Israel / Rehoboam,
> king of Judah (son of Solomon) split in 1 Kings
> 12-14. In 1 Kings 12 Israel
> and Judah/Benjamin are at war with each other. The
> idea is that Judah (with
> Benjamin and some Levites) became the Jews, and the
> other 10 tribes (Joseph
> split in two - Ephraim and Manasseh) with some
> Levites disappeared from
> biblical history (but not from biblical prophecy.)
> Some argue that England
> and the Commonwealth are Ephraim, and the USA/Canada
> are Manasseh, and some
> swop that around.
>
> Ultimately, it's similar to the Baptist claim to
> succession from the
> Apostles, except it's a combination of an ancestral
> lineage going back to
> Jacob, and a theological lineage of true
> Christianity outside the Catholic
> Church (as Albigensians, Paulicians, and a variety
> of groups with weird
> theologies.)
>
> The above may or may not have any relevance to the
> specific radio programme
> in question ... it's just one possibility of where
> these ideas may originate
> .
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art Kelly" <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> To: <jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>; "Apologetics Group"
> <apologetics at gathman.org>;
> "Father Phillips" <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:48 PM
> Subject: [Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church
>
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > As you may recall, I know Stan Montieth, although
> I've
> > not talked with him in some time.
> >
> > I may call him to ask who this guest was and how I
> can
> > contact that person. I may also suggest to Stan
> that
> > such absurd statements should not go unchallenged.
> >
> > Since it is indisputable that, under King Henry
> VIII,
> > the Anglican Church left the Catholic Church,
> there is
> > no way that the Anglican Chruch could possibly be
> the
> > oldest Christian denomination.
> >
> > Perhaps what he meant was that the Reformation
> > restored Christianity to its original form before
> the
> > Catholic Church got off track.
> >
> > Of course, such a contention is impossible to
> prove,
> > but I suppose some Anglicans might claim that the
> > religion they practice is more in line with
> original
> > Christianity than Catholicism.
> >
> > Is that what the guest said?
> >
> > On the other hand, I think you previously wrote
> that
> > the guest claimed that the Anglican Church was
> started
> > by Joseph of Arimathea. To my knowledge, no
> Christian
> > historian of any denomination has ever suggested
> such
> > a thing.
> >
> > What proof, if any, did he submit for such a
> startling
> > statement? And if true, where was the Anglican
> Church
> > all of the centuries before King Henry VIII?
> >
> > Art
> >
> > --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
> >
> > > Art,
> > >
> > > It was on Radio Liberty hosted by Dr Stan
> Montieth.
> > > Lately the good doctor has begun to drop the
> curtain
> > > on a very anti-Catholic persona. I do not
> recall
> > > the name of the guest, but he was from Great
> > > Britain. The guest launched into an attack on
> the
> > > Church and unlike in the past Dr Stan wanted
> more.
> > > At on point in the interview the guest openly
> stated
> > > the Catholic Church is a false church and that
> it is
> > > the woman riding the beast. Dr Stan loved it
> and
> > > begged for more. The guest informed him that he
> did
> > > not want to offend the Catholic listeners any
> more
> > > than he already had and Stan agreed.
> > >
> > > The guy claimed, with no proof whatsoever, the
> > > Anglican Church is the oldest historic Christian
> > > Church. I was amazed that Dr Stan did not voice
> > > even the slightest hint of a protest at this
> claim
> > > given that he holds the lowest possible view of
> the
> > > church because he does not even think a
> Christian
> > > needs a church. It's just Stan and Jesus.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > From: Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> > > > Date: 2006/10/26 Thu PM 11:50:19 EDT
> > > > To: jmurf80 at bellsouth.net, Apologetics Group
> > > <apologetics at gathman.org>,
> > > > Father Phillips
> <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Historic Church
> > > >
> > > > Jim,
> > > >
> > > > This is absurd on a multi-dimensional level.
> > > >
> > > > What radio program did you hear this on? Who
> was
> > > the
> > > > speaker? What station or network was it on?
> What
> > > could
> > > > possibly have been their source of
> information?
> > > >
> > > > Was it their contention that Jesus founded the
> > > > Anglican Church on Joseph of Arimathea? What
> > > exactly
> > > > is their proof? And where was this church for
> > > 1,500
> > > > years before King Henry VIII?
> > > >
> > > > I seriously doubt that even the Anglican
> > > Archbishop of
> > > > Canterbury would belive this nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > Were the persons making this claim serious or
> was
> > > it
> > > > just a joke? Maybe a parody of the Trail of
> Blood
> > > > absurdity which claims ancient Baptists?
> > > >
> > > > Please provide more information on this.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Art
> > > >
> > > > --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Art,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well it's time to convert to the Anglican
> > > Church.
> > > > > Earlier today I heard a radio program while
> I
> > > was
> > > > > working on an appraisal that really had me
> > > laughing.
> > > > > It seems the Anglican Church was founded by
> > > Joseph
> > > > > of Arimathea.
> > > > >
> > > > > SO TAKE THAT YOU WICKED CATHOLIC! It's a
> Rock
> > > you
> > > > > can stand on! A Rock that will never fail
> you!
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > (703) 904-3763 home
> > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > art.kelly at cox.net
> > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
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ART KELLY, ATM-S
13524 Brightfield Lane
Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
(703) 904-3763 home
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
art.kelly at cox.net
ArtK135 at Netscape.net
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