[Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church

Fri Oct 27 16:11:43 EDT 2006

Hi

I've seen this argument before.  It's not so much about the Anglican
denomination existing prior to Henry VIII, but a claim that the British were
true Christians (due to Joseph of Arimathea's missionary work, and some
include Jesus himself before his ministry began as recorded in the Gospels)
before being corrupted by Catholic influence.  Specific examples being the
corruption of true Christianity in Ireland by St Patrick (or the corruption
of St Patrick's true Sabbath-keeping non-Trinitarian Christianity by later
Catholic input) and the corruption of true Christianity in England by the
arrival of St Augustine of Canterbury, their first bishop.

It's a theory well-liked by the British Israel crowd, who believe that the
Britons are the true descendants of Ephraim and/or Manasseh, the two sons of
Joseph (see Genesis 48.)  The other "lost" tribes of Israel are located in
various places in Europe, Dan usually being linked to the Irish and/or the
Danish.  Only Judah and Benjamin remained as the kingdom of Judah, the rest
formed the kingdom of Israel (see the Jeroboam, king of Israel / Rehoboam,
king of Judah (son of Solomon) split in 1 Kings 12-14.  In 1 Kings 12 Israel
and Judah/Benjamin are at war with each other.  The idea is that Judah (with
Benjamin and some Levites) became the Jews, and the other 10 tribes (Joseph
split in two - Ephraim and Manasseh) with some Levites disappeared from
biblical history (but not from biblical prophecy.)  Some argue that England
and the Commonwealth are Ephraim, and the USA/Canada are Manasseh, and some
swop that around.

Ultimately, it's similar to the Baptist claim to succession from the
Apostles, except it's a combination of an ancestral lineage going back to
Jacob, and a theological lineage of true Christianity outside the Catholic
Church (as Albigensians, Paulicians, and a variety of groups with weird
theologies.)

The above may or may not have any relevance to the specific radio programme
in question ... it's just one possibility of where these ideas may originate
.

God bless,
Stephen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Kelly" <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
To: <jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>; "Apologetics Group" <apologetics at gathman.org>;
"Father Phillips" <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: [Apologetics] Re: Re: Historic Church

> Jim,
>
> As you may recall, I know Stan Montieth, although I've
> not talked with him in some time.
>
> I may call him to ask who this guest was and how I can
> contact that person. I may also suggest to Stan that
> such absurd statements should not go unchallenged.
>
> Since it is indisputable that, under King Henry VIII,
> the Anglican Church left the Catholic Church, there is
> no way that the Anglican Chruch could possibly be the
> oldest Christian denomination.
>
> Perhaps what he meant was that the Reformation
> restored Christianity to its original form before the
> Catholic Church got off track.
>
> Of course, such a contention is impossible to prove,
> but I suppose some Anglicans might claim that the
> religion they practice is more in line with original
> Christianity than Catholicism.
>
> Is that what the guest said?
>
> On the other hand, I think you previously wrote that
> the guest claimed that the Anglican Church was started
> by Joseph of Arimathea. To my knowledge, no Christian
> historian of any denomination has ever suggested such
> a thing.
>
> What proof, if any, did he submit for such a startling
> statement?  And if true, where was the Anglican Church
> all of the centuries before King Henry VIII?
>
> Art
>
> --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> > Art,
> >
> > It was on Radio Liberty hosted by Dr Stan Montieth.
> > Lately the good doctor has begun to drop the curtain
> > on a very anti-Catholic persona.  I do not recall
> > the name of the guest, but he was from Great
> > Britain.  The guest launched into an attack on the
> > Church and unlike in the past Dr Stan wanted more.
> > At on point in the interview the guest openly stated
> > the Catholic Church is a false church and that it is
> > the woman riding the beast.  Dr Stan loved it and
> > begged for more.  The guest informed him that he did
> > not want to offend the Catholic listeners any more
> > than he already had and Stan agreed.
> >
> > The guy claimed, with no proof whatsoever, the
> > Anglican Church is the oldest historic Christian
> > Church.  I was amazed that Dr Stan did not voice
> > even the slightest hint of a protest at this claim
> > given that he holds the lowest possible view of the
> > church because he does not even think a Christian
> > needs a church.  It's just Stan and Jesus.
> >
> > Jim
> > >
> > > From: Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: 2006/10/26 Thu PM 11:50:19 EDT
> > > To: jmurf80 at bellsouth.net,  Apologetics Group
> > <apologetics at gathman.org>,
> > >   Father Phillips <frphillips at atonementonline.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Historic Church
> > >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > This is absurd on a multi-dimensional level.
> > >
> > > What radio program did you hear this on? Who was
> > the
> > > speaker? What station or network was it on? What
> > could
> > > possibly have been their source of information?
> > >
> > > Was it their contention that Jesus founded the
> > > Anglican Church on Joseph of Arimathea? What
> > exactly
> > > is their proof? And where was this church for
> > 1,500
> > > years before King Henry VIII?
> > >
> > > I seriously doubt that even the Anglican
> > Archbishop of
> > > Canterbury would belive this nonsense.
> > >
> > > Were the persons making this claim serious or was
> > it
> > > just a joke? Maybe a parody of the Trail of Blood
> > > absurdity which claims ancient Baptists?
> > >
> > > Please provide more information on this.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Art
> > >
> > > --- jmurf80 at bellsouth.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > Art,
> > > >
> > > > Well it's time to convert to the Anglican
> > Church.
> > > > Earlier today I heard a radio program while I
> > was
> > > > working on an appraisal that really had me
> > laughing.
> > > >  It seems the Anglican Church was founded by
> > Joseph
> > > > of Arimathea.
> > > >
> > > > SO TAKE THAT YOU WICKED CATHOLIC!  It's a Rock
> > you
> > > > can stand on!  A Rock that will never fail you!
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > >   13524 Brightfield Lane
> > >   Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > >   (703) 904-3763 home
> > >   arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > >   art.kelly at cox.net
> > >   ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>   ART KELLY, ATM-S
>   13524 Brightfield Lane
>   Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
>   (703) 904-3763 home
>   arthurkelly at yahoo.com
>   art.kelly at cox.net
>   ArtK135 at Netscape.net
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