[Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter

Tue Aug 21 21:11:00 EDT 2007

Stephen,

  Thank you for the wonderful and extensive explanation.

  Dianne

Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:
          Hi

  Well, there were quiet moments, but the church was a very small one, and very well designed accoustically, even though it was quite a primitive building, being very rural.  It was a Latin-rite building; the congregation was mixed religion because there were no Orthodox priests in the area - this was their visiting Catholicos from India.  So most could be heard; and the clouds of incense were thick, but didn't mask the view - not quite.

  In terms of not hearing what the priest does, the Byzantines are worse - you don't even see the priest during the consecration.  I've never been to their liturgies, but there are plenty of bracketed "(in a low voice)" statements throughout the copy of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have.  I've put it in my Google Docs - http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j ... I have a nice PDF in Greek and English if anyone wants it.

  Regarding the words said by the priest when communion was received, I've done a bit of searching, and can only find the following (on the Melkite Catholic site) - 

  In early times the words used by the priest in giving Holy Communion were, for the species of bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and for the species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum Saluti" - "The Blood of Christ, the cup of Salvation" - to which "Amen" was also answered. About the time of Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the form had changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to which the receiver would respond, as before "Amen." With Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find the form, "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve you unto life everlasting."
  - http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html

Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam meam in vitam aeternam. Amen.    - Tridentine Mass, Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
   - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
   - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
   - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)

  Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam. Amen.
   - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most recent form, as far as I can work out, but dates to the 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they intinct, or that this refers to the priest only.)
   - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)

  Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video, which I cannot differentiate from the Tridentine Mass, having never been to either:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao

  In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite), the communicant says "Amen":
    [The Celebrant administers the Body and Blood from the Paten, saying:]
[From the Sacrament of Baptism:
May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to thee unto life eternal.
R. Amen.]
[Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the living and
most high God, be to thee unto life eternal.
R. Amen.]
[The Chalice is administered with the words:
May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to thee unto life eternal.
R. Amen.
  Priest: Corpus Christ
Response: Amen
   - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date, but suppression of the rite was attempted in 1060.)

  And most different of all, the text of the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the following:
  The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

  God bless,
  Stephen
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Kelly 
  To: Apologetics Group 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter

Stephen,

Did the celebrant turn his back to the congregation
and speak in a deliberately low voice so no one could
see or hear what was happening on the altar?

Art

--- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:

> Hi
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Dianne Dawson 
>   To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group 
>   Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org
> newsletter
> 
> 
>     If someone had never been to a Mass (in any
> language) then that one might fly, otherwise it's a
> weak argument.  If you were traveling out of the
> country would you avoid going to Mass just because
> you didn't understand every word the priest spoke? 
> I doubt it because you are familiar with the format
> and what is happening and when.  Actually, that is
> one of the best reason to have the Mass in Latin. 
> There I must agree.  I've been to a Novus Ordo Latin
> Mass, which was quite comprehendable even though I
> only had 2 years of school Latin at the time.  I've
> been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't understand at
> all, but I knew what was going on.  I've even to a
> Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not like ours,
> but Eastern rite, and they have their Catholic
> equivalents.  Even there, I could follow, even
> though it was a rite I'd never been to, and in a
> language I'd never heard.
> 
> God bless,
> Stephen
> --
> Stephen Korsman
> skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> The Theotokos Website
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> 

ART KELLY, ATM-S
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