[Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter
Art Kelly
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 23 00:13:29 EDT 2007
Stephen,
First of all, the liturgy of the Assyrian Church of
the East, which is the successor to the Nestorians,
does NOT even have a meaningful epiclesis.
You can read their complete liturgy at
http://alumni.cs.ucsb.edu/~evodius/liturgy/mariaddai.htm
Second, the Chaldean Catholic Church definitely DOES
use the words of institution in their Mass at
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
You won't have any trouble finding it, as it is
printed in BOLD for emphasis.
As for the Vatican document you mentioned, it states
in part:
"...the Catholic Church considers the words of the
Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and therefore
INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the Anaphora or
Eucharistic Prayer...
AND
"...the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed
present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a
coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in
a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in
successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and
intercession."
AND
"When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and
Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
Church of the East."
Furthermore, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church
states:
"In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the text),
the power of the words and the action of Christ, and
the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally
present under the species of bread and wine Christ's
body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross
once for all.
AND
"The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are
wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of
the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces
the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added) spoken by
Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body which
will be given up for you...This is the cup of my
blood...'
AND
"By the consecration, the transubstantiation of the
bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is
brought about."
In addition, Pope John Paul II's 13 March 2005 letter
to priests at
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HTH05.HTM
states:
I will take as my inspiration the words of Eucharistic
CONSECRATION (emphasis added), which we say every day
in persona Christi in order to make present on our
altars the sacrifice made once and for all on Calvary.
These words provide us with illuminating insights for
priestly spirituality: if the whole Church draws life
from the Eucharist, all the more then must the life of
a priest be "shaped" by the Eucharist. So for us, the
WORDS OF INSTITUTION (emphasis added) must be more
than a formula of consecration: they must be a
"formula of life".
Finally, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism No.4, states:
250. Q. How do the priests exercise this power of
changing bread and wine into the body and blood of
Christ?
A. The priests exercise this power of changing bread
and wine into the body and blood of Christ through the
words of consecration in the Mass, which are the words
of Christ: "This is My body; this is My blood."
If you want more evidence, please let me know. The
supply is limitless.
Art
--- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Do lay people still take communion back home? It's
> not something I've ever seen mentioned regarding
> modern times. In answer to the argument that
> communion was "always" on the tongue, there is ample
> evidence from the Church Fathers that communion was
> taken home by laity for sick people - before
> communion on the tongue became the norm. In the
> East, it's given by spoon, which many in the West
> have considered to be contrary to "Take and eat ...
> take and drink."
>
> I don't think the words used when the priest gives
> out communion are really such an important issue - I
> showed 3 different forms (old Roman, new Roman,
> Byzantine).
>
> If we look at tha baptismal formula, there are two
> standard forms - "I baptise you ..." and "You are
> baptised ..." Western Catholics use the former, and
> Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use the latter. All
> consider both to be valid.
>
> If we look at the bread used, only the Romans,
> Maronites, Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) use
> unleavened bread - all the rest in the Catholic and
> Orthodox world use leavened bread. Today the
> customs exist happily side by side; in the past it
> was an issue to fight over.
>
> Of far greater concern is the order of the
> Eucharistic Prayer - and prior to 1500, the
> Mozarabic rite didn't have a formal Eucharistic
> Prayer, and was flexible, and only after 1500 were
> the words of institution (This is my Body ... This
> is my Blood) even required. Even there, there is no
> agreement on when the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood of Christ. In the West, there is
> agreement (but not a formal definition) that it
> occurs with the words of institution, which, on
> their own, are considered to constitute the
> necessary and sufficient sacramental form of the
> Eucharist, and my understanding is that
> transubstantiation is therefore completed here also;
> in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) there is
> agreement that it is completed with the epiclesis
> (which comes after the words of institution in the
> Byzantine and Tridentine rites, but prior to the
> words of consecration in the current ordinary form.)
> Both points of view exist happily side by side in
> the Catholic Church united by the Pope.
>
> So to an Eastern Catholic, if the epiclesis comes
> before the words of institution, the bread and wine
> are already transformed into the Body and Blood of
> Christ by the time the Latin priest says "On the
> night he was betrayed" (the form used in the current
> ordinary rite, and the Eastern rites) or "On the day
> before he suffered" (in the Tridentine Mass.) The
> epiclesis therefore is placed in a rather strange
> positon in the current ordinary rite for Easterners,
> and in the Tridentine and Eastern rites, after the
> words of institution, which it more comfortable for
> both sides.
>
> Ironically, however "essential" the words of
> institution (This is my Body ... This is my Blood)
> may be for the Roman-rite Catholics, they ARE
> dispensable in some cases - the Holy Qurbana of
> Addai and Mari omits them, and Rome has accepted
> this as a valid liturgy used by Catholics today.
> The reasoning: "the words of the institution of the
> Eucharist are in fact present in the anaphora of
> Addai and Mari, not in the form of a coherent
> narration and in a literal way but in a eucological
> and disseminated manner, that is to say they are
> integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving, praise
> and intercession which follow." [Pontifical Council
> for Promoting Christian Unity, Guidelines for
> Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean
> Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, July 20,
> 2001.]
>
> Words of institution in green [Underlined section =
> the only audible words from the priest in the
> Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) in the Liturgy of St
> John Chrysostom.]
> Anamnesis in purple
> Epiclesis in red
> When the Real Presence becomes present in blue
>
> Note the sequence:
> Epiclesis, words of institution, anamnesis = current
> Mass
> Words of institution, anamnesis, epiclesis = Eastern
> and Tridentine Mass
>
> In other words, the following is the order of our
> current Mass [Eucharistic Prayer II] -
>
> Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all
> holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to
> make them holy, so that they may become for us the
> body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. [This is
> where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood
> for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> ...
> Before he was given up to death, a death he freely
> accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks, He
> broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said:
> Take this, all of you, and eat it;
> this is my body which will be given up for you.
> When the supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he
> gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his
> disciples, and said:
> Take this, all of you, and drink from it;
> this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new
> and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you
> and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in
> memory of me.
> [This is where the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood for Western Catholics]
> ...
> In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer
> you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving
> cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in
> your presence and serve you. May all of us who share
> in the body and blood of Christ be brought together
> in unity by the Holy Spirit.
>
> In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order is
> as follows [Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] -
>
> Priest (inaudibly): Having come and having fulfilled
> the divine plan for us, on the night when He was
> delivered up, or rather gave Himself up for the life
> of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure and
> blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed and sanctified
> it and, breaking it, gave it to His holy disciples
> and apostles, saying:
> Priest (aloud): Take, eat, this is my body which is
> broken for you for the remission of sins.
> Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after supper, He
> took the cup, saying:
> Priest (aloud): Drink of this all of you; this is my
> blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for you and
> for many for the remission of sins.
> [This is where the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood for Western Catholics]
> ...
> Priest (inaudibly): Remembering therefore this
> saving commandment, and all that came to pass for
> our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on
> the third day, the ascension into heaven, the
> enthronement at the right hand, and the second and
> glorious coming.
> ...
> Priest: Offering You these gifts from Your own
> gifts, in all and for all. We praise You, we bless
> You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord
> our God.
> Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You
> this spiritual worship without the shedding of
> blood, and we ask, pray and entreat You: send down
> Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here
> offered.
> Deacon: Father, bless the holy bread.
> Priest: And make this bread the precious Body of
> Your Christ. Amen.
> Deacon: Father, bless the holy cup.
> Deacon: Father, bless them both.
> Priest: Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen.
> Amen. Amen.
> [This is where the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
>
> In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order is
> as follows [Tridentine Mass] -
>
> Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in sanctas
> ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis oculis in
> caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem, tibi
> gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque discipulis
> suis, dicens: Accipite et manducate ex hoc omnes:
> hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur.
> (Who, on the day before his Passion, took bread in
> his holy venerable hands, and looking up to heaven
> to you, God, his almighty Father, giving you thanks,
> he blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his
> disciples, saying: Take, all of you, and eat of it:
> for this is my Body, which will be given up for
> you).
> Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens et hunc
> praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus
> suas, item tibi gratias agens benedixit, deditque
> discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et bibite ex eo
> omnes: his est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et
> aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis
> effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc facite in
> meam commemorationem. (Similarly, when supper was
> ended, taking also this magnificent chalice in his
> holy venerable hands, giving you thanks in like
> manner, he blessed it, and gave it to his disciples,
> saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
> for this is the cup of my Blood of the new and
> eternal testament, which will be shed for you and
> for the many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in
> memory of me.)
> [This is where the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood for Western Catholics]
> ...
> Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed et plebs
> tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii tui, Domini
> nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab inferis
> resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae
> ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati tuae de
> tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam,
> hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctum vitae aeternae et
> Calicem salutis perpetuae. (Therefore, Lord, we your
> servants, and also your holy people, mindful of the
> so blessed passion of the same Christ, your Son, our
> Lord, and of his resurrection from the world beneath
> and his glorious ascension to heaven, offer to your
> exalted majesty, from what you have bestowed and
> given, a pure victim, a holy victim, a stainless
> victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the
> Chalice of perpetual salvation).
> ...
> Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube haec
> perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime
> altare tuum, in conspectu divinae maiestatis tuae;
> ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione
> sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem
> sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti et gratia
> repleamur. (Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen) (We
> suppliantly beg you, almighty God, bid them to be
> brought by the hands of your holy Angel to your
> altar on high, in the sight of your divine majesty,
> so that as many of us as will, by this participation
> of the altar, receive the sacred Body and Blood of
> your Son may be filled with every heavenly blessing
> and grace. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen]).
> [This is where the bread and wine become the Body
> and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
>
> And then there is the issue of whether the epiclesis
> is an invocation of the Holy Spirit (current Roman
> norm, Orthodox), the Father (Tridentine Mass, which
> requires correction to invoke the Holy Spirit for
> Orthodox use) or Christ (I found one while reading
> up for yesterday's post.)
>
> So my conclusion is that there are far greater
> things to worry about than the words used to give
> communion.
>
> Depending on the priest, Mass at the local cathedral
> may or may not include the creed, and communion is
> often enough by self-intinction with the chalice
> left standing on the altar, and the priest giving
> the Host. Those are far bigger concerns.
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dianne Dawson
> To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org
> newsletter
>
>
> He also substantiated that at least as far back as
> the sixth century the words of the priest were not a
> simple "The Body of Christ." So how far back is far
> enough? Why go back to the beginning for parts of
> the Mass and not others. If you take part of the
> Mass back to the earliest times then you need to
> take the whole Mass back. If we do that then
> Communion is not received at EVERY Mass. Also,
> ordinary people can take Communion back to their
> homes to distribute to other people. How far back
> would you purpose going back and are you willing to
> accept ALL of the changes that would entail
> (remember that the Mass would not be in English).
>
> Dianne
>
> Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You will note that Stephen substantiated my
> statement
> that the distribution of Communion in the
> current rite
> of the Mass is authentic to the early Chruch,
> while
> the Tridentine rite is NOT:
>
> In early times the words used by the priest in
> giving
> Holy Communion were, for the species of bread,
> "Corpus
> Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the
> receiver
> answered, "Amen."
>
> If you need further proof from other
> authoratative
> sources, please let me know.
>
> Art
>
> --- Dianne Dawson wrote:
>
> > Stephen,
> >
> > Thank you for the wonderful and extensive
> > explanation.
> >
> > Dianne
> >
> > Stephen Korsman wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Well, there were quiet moments, but the church
> was
> > a very small one, and very well designed
> > accoustically, even though it was quite a
> primitive
> > building, being very rural. It was a
> Latin-rite
> > building; the congregation was mixed religion
> > because there were no Orthodox priests in the
> area -
> > this was their visiting Catholicos from India.
> So
> > most could be heard; and the clouds of incense
> were
> > thick, but didn't mask the view - not quite.
> >
> > In terms of not hearing what the priest does,
> the
> > Byzantines are worse - you don't even see the
> priest
> > during the consecration. I've never been to
> their
> > liturgies, but there are plenty of bracketed
> "(in a
> > low voice)" statements throughout the copy of
> the
> > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've put
> it
> > in my Google Docs -
> > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j
> ... I
> > have a nice PDF in Greek and English if anyone
> wants
> > it.
> >
> > Regarding the words said by the priest when
> > communion was received, I've done a bit of
> > searching, and can only find the following (on
> the
> > Melkite Catholic site) -
> >
> > In early times the words used by the priest in
> > giving Holy Communion were, for the species of
> > bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of Christ" -
> to
> > which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and for
> the
> > species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum
> Saluti" -
> > "The Blood of Christ, the cup of Salvation" -
> to
> > which "Amen" was also answered. About the time
> of
> > Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the
> form had
> > changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu
> Christi
> > conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or our
> Lord
> > Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to which
> the
> > receiver would respond, as before "Amen." With
> > Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find the
> form,
> > "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ
> preserve you
> > unto life everlasting."
> > - http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html
> >
> > Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat
> animam
> > meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. - Tridentine
> Mass,
> > Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
> > - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
> > - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
> > - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)
> >
> > Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> > custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam. Amen.
> > - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most
> recent
> > form, as far as I can work out, but dates to
> the
> > 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they
> intinct, or
> > that this refers to the priest only.)
> > - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)
> >
> > Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video, which I
> > cannot differentiate from the Tridentine Mass,
> > having never been to either:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao
> >
> > In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using
> > leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite), the
> > communicant says "Amen":
> > [The Celebrant administers the Body and Blood
> > from the Paten, saying:]
> > [From the Sacrament of Baptism:
> > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> Christ be
> > to thee unto life eternal.
> > R. Amen.]
> > [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
> > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> Christ, the
> > Son of the living and
> > most high God, be to thee unto life eternal.
> > R. Amen.]
> > [The Chalice is administered with the words:
> > May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to
> thee
> > unto life eternal.
> > R. Amen.
> > Priest: Corpus Christ
> > Response: Amen
> > - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date, but
> > suppression of the rite was attempted in
> 1060.)
> >
> > And most different of all, the text of the
> Divine
> > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the
> following:
> > The servant of God (Name) receives the Body
> and
> > Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and
> eternal
> > life.
> >
> > God bless,
> > Stephen
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Art Kelly
> > To: Apologetics Group
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> NewAdvent.org
> > newsletter
> >
> >
> > Stephen,
> >
> > Did the celebrant turn his back to the
> congregation
> > and speak in a deliberately low voice so no
> one
> > could
> > see or hear what was happening on the altar?
> >
> > Art
> >
> > --- Stephen Korsman
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Dianne Dawson
> > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > NewAdvent.org
> > > newsletter
> > >
> > >
> > > If someone had never been to a Mass (in any
> > > language) then that one might fly, otherwise
> it's
> > a
> > > weak argument. If you were traveling out of
> the
> > > country would you avoid going to Mass just
> because
> > > you didn't understand every word the priest
> spoke?
> >
> > > I doubt it because you are familiar with the
> > format
> > > and what is happening and when. Actually,
> that is
> > > one of the best reason to have the Mass in
> Latin.
> > > There I must agree. I've been to a Novus
> Ordo
> > Latin
> > > Mass, which was quite comprehendable even
> though I
> > > only had 2 years of school Latin at the
> time.
> > I've
> > > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't
> understand at
> > > all, but I knew what was going on. I've even
> to a
> > > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not
> like
> > ours,
> > > but Eastern rite, and they have their
> Catholic
> > > equivalents. Even there, I could follow,
> even
> > > though it was a rite I'd never been to, and
> in a
> > > language I'd never heard.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > > Stephen
> > > --
> > > Stephen Korsman
> > > skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> > > The Theotokos Website
> > > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed
> > > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed
> > >
> > > IC | XC
> > > ---------
> > > NI | KA
> > >
> >
> >
> > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > (703) 904-3763 home
> > (703) 396-6956 work
> > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > art.kelly at cox.net
> > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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> >
> > Like a deer that longs for running waters so
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> > longs for you, O God.
> >
> > Ps 42:1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> ART KELLY, ATM-S
> 13524 Brightfield Lane
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