[Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter
Stephen Korsman
skorsman at theotokos.co.za
Wed Aug 22 15:43:44 EDT 2007
Hi
Do lay people still take communion back home? It's not something I've ever seen mentioned regarding modern times. In answer to the argument that communion was "always" on the tongue, there is ample evidence from the Church Fathers that communion was taken home by laity for sick people - before communion on the tongue became the norm. In the East, it's given by spoon, which many in the West have considered to be contrary to "Take and eat ... take and drink."
I don't think the words used when the priest gives out communion are really such an important issue - I showed 3 different forms (old Roman, new Roman, Byzantine).
If we look at tha baptismal formula, there are two standard forms - "I baptise you ..." and "You are baptised ..." Western Catholics use the former, and Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use the latter. All consider both to be valid.
If we look at the bread used, only the Romans, Maronites, Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) use unleavened bread - all the rest in the Catholic and Orthodox world use leavened bread. Today the customs exist happily side by side; in the past it was an issue to fight over.
Of far greater concern is the order of the Eucharistic Prayer - and prior to 1500, the Mozarabic rite didn't have a formal Eucharistic Prayer, and was flexible, and only after 1500 were the words of institution (This is my Body ... This is my Blood) even required. Even there, there is no agreement on when the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. In the West, there is agreement (but not a formal definition) that it occurs with the words of institution, which, on their own, are considered to constitute the necessary and sufficient sacramental form of the Eucharist, and my understanding is that transubstantiation is therefore completed here also; in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) there is agreement that it is completed with the epiclesis (which comes after the words of institution in the Byzantine and Tridentine rites, but prior to the words of consecration in the current ordinary form.) Both points of view exist happily side by side in the Catholic Church united by the Pope.
So to an Eastern Catholic, if the epiclesis comes before the words of institution, the bread and wine are already transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ by the time the Latin priest says "On the night he was betrayed" (the form used in the current ordinary rite, and the Eastern rites) or "On the day before he suffered" (in the Tridentine Mass.) The epiclesis therefore is placed in a rather strange positon in the current ordinary rite for Easterners, and in the Tridentine and Eastern rites, after the words of institution, which it more comfortable for both sides.
Ironically, however "essential" the words of institution (This is my Body ... This is my Blood) may be for the Roman-rite Catholics, they ARE dispensable in some cases - the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari omits them, and Rome has accepted this as a valid liturgy used by Catholics today. The reasoning: "the words of the institution of the Eucharist are in fact present in the anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in the form of a coherent narration and in a literal way but in a eucological and disseminated manner, that is to say they are integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession which follow." [Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, July 20, 2001.]
Words of institution in green [Underlined section = the only audible words from the priest in the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) in the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom.]
Anamnesis in purple
Epiclesis in red
When the Real Presence becomes present in blue
Note the sequence:
Epiclesis, words of institution, anamnesis = current Mass
Words of institution, anamnesis, epiclesis = Eastern and Tridentine Mass
In other words, the following is the order of our current Mass [Eucharistic Prayer II] -
Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. [This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
...
Before he was given up to death, a death he freely accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks, He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said:
Take this, all of you, and eat it;
this is my body which will be given up for you.
When the supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it;
this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.
[This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Western Catholics]
...
In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.
In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order is as follows [Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] -
Priest (inaudibly): Having come and having fulfilled the divine plan for us, on the night when He was delivered up, or rather gave Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure and blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed and sanctified it and, breaking it, gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:
Priest (aloud): Take, eat, this is my body which is broken for you for the remission of sins.
Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:
Priest (aloud): Drink of this all of you; this is my blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.
[This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Western Catholics]
...
Priest (inaudibly): Remembering therefore this saving commandment, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming.
...
Priest: Offering You these gifts from Your own gifts, in all and for all. We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.
Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered.
Deacon: Father, bless the holy bread.
Priest: And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ. Amen.
Deacon: Father, bless the holy cup.
Deacon: Father, bless them both.
Priest: Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen.
[This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order is as follows [Tridentine Mass] -
Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis oculis in caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem, tibi gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et manducate ex hoc omnes: hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur. (Who, on the day before his Passion, took bread in his holy venerable hands, and looking up to heaven to you, God, his almighty Father, giving you thanks, he blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take, all of you, and eat of it: for this is my Body, which will be given up for you).
Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens et hunc praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus suas, item tibi gratias agens benedixit, deditque discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et bibite ex eo omnes: his est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc facite in meam commemorationem. (Similarly, when supper was ended, taking also this magnificent chalice in his holy venerable hands, giving you thanks in like manner, he blessed it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: for this is the cup of my Blood of the new and eternal testament, which will be shed for you and for the many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me.)
[This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Western Catholics]
...
Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed et plebs tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii tui, Domini nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab inferis resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati tuae de tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam, hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctum vitae aeternae et Calicem salutis perpetuae. (Therefore, Lord, we your servants, and also your holy people, mindful of the so blessed passion of the same Christ, your Son, our Lord, and of his resurrection from the world beneath and his glorious ascension to heaven, offer to your exalted majesty, from what you have bestowed and given, a pure victim, a holy victim, a stainless victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the Chalice of perpetual salvation).
...
Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube haec perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime altare tuum, in conspectu divinae maiestatis tuae; ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti et gratia repleamur. (Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen) (We suppliantly beg you, almighty God, bid them to be brought by the hands of your holy Angel to your altar on high, in the sight of your divine majesty, so that as many of us as will, by this participation of the altar, receive the sacred Body and Blood of your Son may be filled with every heavenly blessing and grace. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen]).
[This is where the bread and wine become the Body and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
And then there is the issue of whether the epiclesis is an invocation of the Holy Spirit (current Roman norm, Orthodox), the Father (Tridentine Mass, which requires correction to invoke the Holy Spirit for Orthodox use) or Christ (I found one while reading up for yesterday's post.)
So my conclusion is that there are far greater things to worry about than the words used to give communion.
Depending on the priest, Mass at the local cathedral may or may not include the creed, and communion is often enough by self-intinction with the chalice left standing on the altar, and the priest giving the Host. Those are far bigger concerns.
God bless,
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: Dianne Dawson
To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter
He also substantiated that at least as far back as the sixth century the words of the priest were not a simple "The Body of Christ." So how far back is far enough? Why go back to the beginning for parts of the Mass and not others. If you take part of the Mass back to the earliest times then you need to take the whole Mass back. If we do that then Communion is not received at EVERY Mass. Also, ordinary people can take Communion back to their homes to distribute to other people. How far back would you purpose going back and are you willing to accept ALL of the changes that would entail (remember that the Mass would not be in English).
Dianne
Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
You will note that Stephen substantiated my statement
that the distribution of Communion in the current rite
of the Mass is authentic to the early Chruch, while
the Tridentine rite is NOT:
In early times the words used by the priest in giving
Holy Communion were, for the species of bread, "Corpus
Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the receiver
answered, "Amen."
If you need further proof from other authoratative
sources, please let me know.
Art
--- Dianne Dawson wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> Thank you for the wonderful and extensive
> explanation.
>
> Dianne
>
> Stephen Korsman wrote:
> Hi
>
> Well, there were quiet moments, but the church was
> a very small one, and very well designed
> accoustically, even though it was quite a primitive
> building, being very rural. It was a Latin-rite
> building; the congregation was mixed religion
> because there were no Orthodox priests in the area -
> this was their visiting Catholicos from India. So
> most could be heard; and the clouds of incense were
> thick, but didn't mask the view - not quite.
>
> In terms of not hearing what the priest does, the
> Byzantines are worse - you don't even see the priest
> during the consecration. I've never been to their
> liturgies, but there are plenty of bracketed "(in a
> low voice)" statements throughout the copy of the
> Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've put it
> in my Google Docs -
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j ... I
> have a nice PDF in Greek and English if anyone wants
> it.
>
> Regarding the words said by the priest when
> communion was received, I've done a bit of
> searching, and can only find the following (on the
> Melkite Catholic site) -
>
> In early times the words used by the priest in
> giving Holy Communion were, for the species of
> bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of Christ" - to
> which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and for the
> species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum Saluti" -
> "The Blood of Christ, the cup of Salvation" - to
> which "Amen" was also answered. About the time of
> Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the form had
> changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or our Lord
> Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to which the
> receiver would respond, as before "Amen." With
> Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find the form,
> "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve you
> unto life everlasting."
> - http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html
>
> Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam
> meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. - Tridentine Mass,
> Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
> - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
> - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
> - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)
>
> Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam. Amen.
> - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most recent
> form, as far as I can work out, but dates to the
> 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they intinct, or
> that this refers to the priest only.)
> - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)
>
> Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video, which I
> cannot differentiate from the Tridentine Mass,
> having never been to either:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao
>
> In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using
> leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite), the
> communicant says "Amen":
> [The Celebrant administers the Body and Blood
> from the Paten, saying:]
> [From the Sacrament of Baptism:
> May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be
> to thee unto life eternal.
> R. Amen.]
> [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
> May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the
> Son of the living and
> most high God, be to thee unto life eternal.
> R. Amen.]
> [The Chalice is administered with the words:
> May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be to thee
> unto life eternal.
> R. Amen.
> Priest: Corpus Christ
> Response: Amen
> - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date, but
> suppression of the rite was attempted in 1060.)
>
> And most different of all, the text of the Divine
> Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the following:
> The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and
> Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal
> life.
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Art Kelly
> To: Apologetics Group
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org
> newsletter
>
>
> Stephen,
>
> Did the celebrant turn his back to the congregation
> and speak in a deliberately low voice so no one
> could
> see or hear what was happening on the altar?
>
> Art
>
> --- Stephen Korsman
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dianne Dawson
> > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> NewAdvent.org
> > newsletter
> >
> >
> > If someone had never been to a Mass (in any
> > language) then that one might fly, otherwise it's
> a
> > weak argument. If you were traveling out of the
> > country would you avoid going to Mass just because
> > you didn't understand every word the priest spoke?
>
> > I doubt it because you are familiar with the
> format
> > and what is happening and when. Actually, that is
> > one of the best reason to have the Mass in Latin.
> > There I must agree. I've been to a Novus Ordo
> Latin
> > Mass, which was quite comprehendable even though I
> > only had 2 years of school Latin at the time.
> I've
> > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't understand at
> > all, but I knew what was going on. I've even to a
> > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not like
> ours,
> > but Eastern rite, and they have their Catholic
> > equivalents. Even there, I could follow, even
> > though it was a rite I'd never been to, and in a
> > language I'd never heard.
> >
> > God bless,
> > Stephen
> > --
> > Stephen Korsman
> > skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> > The Theotokos Website
> > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed
> > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed
> >
> > IC | XC
> > ---------
> > NI | KA
> >
>
>
> ART KELLY, ATM-S
> 13524 Brightfield Lane
> Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> (703) 904-3763 home
> (703) 396-6956 work
> arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> art.kelly at cox.net
> ArtK135 at Netscape.net
>
>
>
>
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> longs for you, O God.
>
> Ps 42:1
>
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