[Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter

[skorsman at theotokos.co.za]

Hi

I don't think this is something worth arguing about.  In general, East vs West
differences are not - they make fascinating 

discussion, but if each side respect the other side, and unity is not
compromised, why fight?

> The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes is crystal
> clear that the words of institution consecrate the
> bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.  The
> Epiclesis is fine, but it is not essential.

Not to Western Catholics, but Eastern Catholics and Orthodox consider it to be
essential.  *Some* may have become more Westernised - especially the Indians
and Maronites - but not all.

> Your reply that, “The CCC quote is
> interesting—although it expresses a Western
> understanding, it also affirms the role of the
> epiclesis
It can still be criticized by Eastern
> Christians
”
> 
> EVERY word in the Catechism is binding on ALL segments
> of the CATHOLIC Church, INCLUDING Eastern rite
> Catholics.

Who are still permitted to omit the Filioque, find the Immaculate Conception to
be a meaningless definition, reject the Western concept of original sin.  The
Treaty of Brest remains in force, which decrees unity between Western and
Byzantine Catholics without concern over the differences regarding purgatory.

> Pope John Paul II wrote:
> 
> “Following the renewal of the Liturgy and the new
> codification of the canon law of the Latin Church AND
> that of the Oriental Catholic Churches, this catechism
> will make a very important contribution to that work
> of renewing the WHOLE life of the Church, as desired
> and begun by the Second Vatican Council

> 
> “It can be said that this Catechism is the result of
> the collaboration of the WHOLE Episcopate of the
> Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation
> to share responsibility for an enterprise which
> directly concerns the life of the Church. This
> response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because
> the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what
> could be called the "symphony" of the faith. The
> achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the
> collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to
> the Church's CATHOLICITY

> 
> “The Catechism of the Catholic Church
is a statement
> of the Church's faith and of CATHOLIC doctrine,
> attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the
> Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I
> DECLARE it to be a SURE NORM for teaching the faith
> and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for
> ecclesial COMMUNION.  May it serve the renewal to
> which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of
> God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the
> undiminished light of the Kingdom!
> 
> “The approval and publication of the Catechism of the
> Catholic Church represent a service which the
> Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy
> Catholic Church, to ALL the particular Churches in
> peace and COMMUNION with the Apostolic See: the
> service, that is, of supporting and confirming the
> faith of ALL the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32),
> as well as of strengthening the bonds of UNITY in the
> SAME apostolic faith. 
> 
> “Therefore, I ask ALL the Church's Pastors and the
> Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a
> spirit of COMMUNION and to use it ASSIDUOUSLY in
> fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and
> calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is
> given to them that it may be a SURE and AUTHENTIC
> reference text for teaching catholic DOCTRINE and
> particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is
> also offered to ALL the faithful who wish to deepen
> their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of
> salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support
> ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire
> for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the
> content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith.
> The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is
> offered to every individual who asks us to give an
> account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and
> who wants to KNOW what the Catholic Church BELIEVES.”

I agree with all of the above.  But the CCC still tends to express what the
Catholic Church believes in a Western way.  The 

same faith can be expressed in an Eastern way.

> With the binding, mandatory nature of the Catechism
> affirmed, it states of the Eucharist:
> 
> "In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the text),
> the power of the words and the action of Christ, and
> the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally
> present under the species of bread and wine Christ's
> body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross
> once for all

> 
> "The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are
> wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of
> the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces
> the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added) spoken by
> Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body which
> will be given up for you...This is the cup of my
> blood...'
> 
> "By the CONSECRATION, the transubstantiation of the
> bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is
> brought about.”
> 
> There can be no doubt that the words of institution
> are what transform the bread and wine into the body
> and blood of Jesus.  The Epiclesis does NOT do that
> and is not necessary.

Not to Western Catholics.  But it's worth noting that the epiclesis is
mentioned
in the passage you quote - which is what I said was the link to the East.

I believe what has been stated as the norm for the West.  That is my belief. 
But although it has been stated 

authoritatively as the belief of the West, the Eastern opinion has not been
rejected as false, and therefore both can and 

do exist side by side in the Catholic Church today.

> From the time of the early beginning of the Tridentine
> rite to the time of the current rite--about 1,300
> years--the Mass had NO Epiclesis.

The epiclesis, in the form of the Supplices te rogamus prayer, can be found in
the Tridentine liturgy, and was carried over 

from the form prior to the Tridentine liturgy.  It may have faded for some time,
but is certainly present in the form used 

since at least the 1400's.  Supplices te rogamus is generally accepted as the
epiclesis.

> In an article on the Epiclesis, the 1913 Catholic
> Encyclopedia states:
> 
> “Nor is there any doubt that the Western rites at one
> time contained similar invocations
It seems that an
> early insistence on the words of Institution as the
> form of Consecration (see, for instance,
> Pseudo-Ambrose, "De Mysteriis", IX, 52, and "De
> Sacramentis", IV, 4, 14-15, 23; St. Augustine, Sermon
> 227) led in the West to the neglect and mutilation of
> the Epiclesis

>  
> “The Catholic Church has decided the question by
> making us kneel and adore the Holy Eucharist
> immediately after the words of Institution, and by
> letting her old Invocation practically disappear


I don't understand that statement.  Nobody kneels immediately after the words of
institution.  According to the rubrics for 

the last 500 years (Tridentine liturgy till 1962, Tridentine liturgy after 1962,
current ordinary Roman liturgy), we are 

already kneeling before that point, and we can't kneel further when that point
arrives.  In some places, Westerners no 

longer kneel, and the Easterners don't kneel at any time.  Perhaps that refers
to pre-Tridentine liturgies.

> “The final argument against the Epiclesis as
> Consecration-form is the account of the Last Supper in
> the Gospels. We know what Christ did then, and that He
> told us to do the same thing. There is NO hint of an
> Epiclesis at the Last Supper.”

That is true.  Both sides have their arguments, and neither set of arguments
has
been rejected by the Catholic Church.  Each conclusion is accepted on its
respective side, and is respected by the other side.

> Your statement is absolutely false that “the Chaldean
> Catholics do have the words of institution as an
> OPTIONAL wording; this was added recently, and many
> Catholics are returning to the original form WITHOUT
> these words. So many Chaldeans use the liturgy with
> the words of institution, and many use it WITHOUT
> them; both are valid.”

I'm not sure which part is false.  It is not compulsory in the form we use
amongst the Catholics or Orthodox who use the 

rite - the words are interspersed amongst the other prayers, which is
sufficient.  It may be used - hence the words in bold 

- but it need not be used in that structured form.   The liturgy is valid in
both forms, and practices today in both forms 

in both Catholic and Orthodox communities.  Why would the PCPCU document
discussing this problem state what it does if that 

were not the case?

> The words of institution are MANDATORY in the Chaldean
> Catholic Church

Then why the statement from the PCPCU that says they are not mandatory in the
structured form known in the West?

> and always have been since 1672 when
> Patriarch Joseph I broke away from the Nestorians,
> made a public profession of the Catholic faith, and
> obtained recognition from Rome.

Perhaps that statement of history applies to the Chaldeans who broke away from
the Nestorians in 1672.  It does not apply 

to the modern Chaldeans joining the Catholic Church.

> The very first thing
> he did was insert the words of institution in the
> liturgy.  (A History of the Chaldean Mass, William F.
> Macomber, Ph.D.)

In 1672.  The current PCPCU norms do not require that to happen today. 
Macomber's text was written 24 years prior to the 

PCPCU document, which it could therefore not take into account.

The document states:

"The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is notable because, from time immemorial, it has
been used without a recitation of the 

Institution Narrative. As the Catholic Church considers the words of the
Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and 

therefore indispensable part of the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer, a long and
careful study was undertaken of the Anaphora 

of Addai and Mari, from a historical, liturgical and theological perspective, at
the end of which the Congregation for the 

Doctrine of Faith on January 17th, 2001 concluded that this Anaphora can be
considered valid. H.H. Pope John Paul II has 

approved this decision."

If the recitation of the institution narrative were required, it would have been
added.  Instead, the anaphora was accepted 

as valid as it was.

The words are there "not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather
in a dispersed euchological way, that is, 

integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession."

In other words they are NOT there as a formal recitation as we have them at our
Mass.  And the CDF and HH JPII consider the 

anaphora to be valid in spite of that.

Yes, they have been adopted by some in the East and some in the West, but not
all in the East and not all in the West.  If 

the words of institution were now universally used (which they are not), the CDF
statement in 2001 was made prior to 

complete univeral use, or else it would have been a pointless statement.

> I previously provided you a link to the liturgy of the
> Chaldean Mass at
> http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html

You also provided a link to the form which omits the words of institution.

> The words of institution are so important they are
> listed in BOLD.  They are NOT optional.  They are
> absolutely required in the Chaldean Mass!

True, but not necessarily in actual literal form.  As an indirect form they are
acceptable.  As stated by the document previously cited.  The words in bold on
that website can be omitted because, as the 

document states, they are included in other forms elsewhere in the prayers. 
They are required, but not in the form we use. 

 Why would the document state what it does if they are required?

> Furthermore, the apparent lack of these words of
> institution that was the issue in determining if
> Catholics and members of the Assyrian Church of the
> East (the current name for the Nestorians, who have
> since renounced their heretical views) could seek out
> each other’s ministers in the case of an emergency. 
> (As previously noted, the liturgy of the Assyrian
> Church of the East lacks a meaningful Epiclesis.)

I can see the epiclesis there.  What it lacks is a coherent institution
narrative, as stated by the PCPCU.

The epiclesis:

And may there come, O my Lord, your Holy Spirit, and may he rest upon this
oblation of your servants. May he bless it and hallow it, and may it be for us,
O my Lord, for the pardon of debts, the forgiveness of sins, the great hope of
resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the kingdom of heaven with all
who have been well-pleasing before you. And for all this great and marvelous
dispensation towards us we will give thanks to you and praise you without
ceasing in your church, which is saved by the precious blood of your Christ -
with unclosed mouth and open face,

In your link, it is specifically labelled "Invocation of the Holy Spirit."

It is also specifically called an epiclesis in the document we are both quoting
below.

> The Vatican stated:
> 
> “When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are
> permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion
> in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in
> the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is
> physically or morally impossible to approach a
> Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to
> receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of
> the Holy Eucharist

> 
> “When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
> Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
> Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
> words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and
> Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
> Church of the East.”

"warmly invited" - that does not mean compulsory.

"Indeed, the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East, assembled in 1978 in
Baghdad, offered ministers in the Assyrian Church the option of reciting the
words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari. Although this
option does not affect the validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, it might
have a particular relevance from a liturgical, as well as an ecumenical
viewpoint."

> I’ve read a couple of articles indicating that, while
> the words of institution are not contained in the
> Assyrian liturgy, they are actually used.

I find that a bit hard to believe.  If they were actually used, there would be
no need for study into the matter, and no need for the CDF to make a statement
that the liturgy without them is still valid.

> They are
> not printed because, according to the source, they
> were considered to be too holy to commit to paper.

I'm not so sure about that one ... perhaps in some places, but, as Macomber
states elsewhere in the article you cite, some missals did exist with those
words present - sometimes in the actual missal, usually on a slip of paper
added in, if they were present at all.

The fact remains that they are not always present in a coherent, literal way,
but indirectly, and this does not invalidate the consecration.

> Of course, since the words of institution are
> contained in Scripture, I cannot see why they could
> not be written in their liturgy.  Nevertheless, the
> Assyrian Church of the East hinted as much in two of
> their documents on this subject.
> 
> The Joint Committee for Theological Dialogue, November
> 1995, states, “In any case, from the beginning, the
> Church of the East always believed, as the Catholic
> Church, that what she performs is what was DONE BY
> CHRIST and his disciples in the Last Supper, and what
> CHRIST HAS ORDERED his disciples to do in his memory
> until he comes again.”
> 
> And in July 2001, a joint document with the Pontifical
> Council For Promoting Christian Unity, states:
> 
> “In conscience of faith, the Assyrian Church of the
> East was always convinced to celebrate the Eucharist
> validly and so to perform in its FULLNESS what Jesus
> Christ ASKED his disciples to do.”

They also explain how and where the words of institution exist in the Anaphora
of Addai and Mari: not in a coherent way, but rather as a quasi-narrative.

"The words of the Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of
Addai and Mari, not in a coherent way and ad litteram, but rather in a
dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in prayers of thanksgiving,
praise and intercession. All these elements constitute a “quasi-narrative” of
the Eucharistic Institution. In the central part of the Anaphora, together with
the Epiclesis, explicit references are made to the eucharistic Body and Blood of
Jesus Christ (“O my Lord, in thy manifold and ineffable mercies, make a good and
gracious remembrance for all the upright and just fathers who were pleasing
before thee, in the commemoration of the body and blood of thy Christ, which we
offer to thee upon the pure and holy altar, as thou hast taught us”),  to the
life-giving mystery of Jesus’ passion, death and resurrection, which is
actually commemorated and celebrated (“that all the inhabitants of the world
may know thee ... and we also, O my Lord, thy unworthy, frail and miserable
servants who are gathered and stand before thee, and have received by tradition
the example which is from thee, rejoicing and glorifying and exalting and
commemorating and celebrating this great and awesome mystery of the passion and
death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ”), to the eucharistic offering
for the forgiveness of the sins, to the eschatological dimension of the
eucharistic celebration and to the Lord’s command to 'do this in memory of me'
(“And let thy Holy Spirit come, O my Lord, and rest upon this offering of thy
servants, and bless it and sanctify it that it my be to us, O my Lord, for the
pardon of sins, and for the forgiveness of shortcomings, and for the great hope
of the resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the kingdom of heaven
with all who have been pleasing before thee”)."

So, although there is nothing like "This is my body" and "This is my blood" in
the Anaphora of Addai and Mari (unless, of course, it is optionally inserted),
the consecration is still valid.

> All of this discussion originated with a contrast of
> the Tridentine Rite with the current rite of the Mass.

A good discussion.

> My point was that in the distribution of Communion,
> the current rite is identical to the very earliest
> records of the Church.  And the use of the Epiclesis
> is another example of something in the early Masses
> that was reinstated in the current rite.  

Supplices te rogamus was present since the 1400's.

Most humbly we implore Thee, Almighty God, bid these offerings to be brought by
the hands of Thy Holy Angel to Thine altar on high, before the face of Thy
Divine Majesty; that as many of us as shall receive the most Sacred + Body and
+ Blood of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this altar, may be filled with
every heavenly blessing and grace. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

What is probably meant is that lack of a mention of the Holy Spirit in the
epiclesis.  That is what was reinstated.

> When I have time, I’ll look into this matter more
> extensively to see if I can find other examples of
> where the current rite of the Mass corresponds to the
> celebration of the Mass before the Tridentine rite
> existed.
> 
> Art

The newer Eucharistic prayers were adopted from other rites, I think.  I've
written enough, and won't look that up now.  I have it somewhere at home.

God bless,
Stephen

> --- skorsman at theotokos.co.za wrote:
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > It's certainly true that the Chaldean Catholics do
> > have the words of
> > institution
> > as an optional wording; this was added recently, and
> > many Catholics are
> > returning to the original form without these words. 
> > So many Chaldeans use the
> > liturgy with the words of institution, and many use
> > it without them; both are
> > valid.
> > 
> > > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of the
> > > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> > therefore
> > > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> > Anaphora or
> > > Eucharistic Prayer...
> > 
> > "Indispensable" needs obvious clarification - as
> > explained, the words do not
> > need to be present in a coherent narrative way.  In
> > the modified form, they
> > are,
> > just as they are in ours.  In the unmodified form of
> > the liturgy, they are not. 
> > They are contained in other forms in that liturgy,
> > but not as a particular
> > blessing / consecration with the priest saying what
> > we are used to hearing him
> > say, and not as part of the prayers and blessings at
> > the time of consecration.
> > 
> > The CCC quote is interesting - although it expresses
> > the Western understanding,
> > it also affirms the role of the epiclesis.  Probably
> > because the CCC was
> > designed to be more than just a Western document,
> > but instead tried to
> > accommodate the Eastern understanding as well.  It
> > can still be criticised by
> > the Eastern Christians - it teaches the Western
> > understanding of original sin,
> > which is not accepted by most Eastern Catholics and
> > Orthodox, and the
> > Immaculate Conception, which is a product of the
> > Western concept of original
> > sin.
> > 
> > [     It's important to realise that we share the
> > same faith, but not
> > necessarily the same explanations and wording.  They
> > believe Mary was full of
> > grace, and preserved sinless, but a definition that
> > says she was free from the
> > stain of sin is meaningless because it relies on the
> > Western idea of what a
> > stain of sin is; the Easterners have no such
> > concept.  It is possible to define
> > one truth in two different ways - the fact that some
> > Catholics are free from the
> > need to adhere to the concepts of purgatory, the
> > Immaculate Conception, original
> > sin, transubstantiation, etc as explained by Western
> > reasoning, is ample
> > evidence that the Church acknowledges this.  The
> > declaration that the Syrian
> > Orthodox and the Catholics share the same faith,
> > without them having to renouce
> > what they've always taught, and what we've always
> > incorrectly labelled
> > Monophysism, was a huge step in that direction. 
> > That the Eastern Catholics are
> > free to omit "Filioque" from their creed is
> > certainly a sign of a shared faith
> > with different expressions.  If you listen to what's
> > happening behind the
> > words, the explanations, the processes, shared truth
> > is even clearer.  The
> > substance of the faith is shared; the accidents -
> > wording, form, experience -
> > not always.  And that can be misleading.  It might
> > sound downright heretical
> > for the East to ignore our explanations of
> > transubstiation or the Filioque, if
> > we don't take what is meant into account, and focus
> > on the words used instead
> > (sort of like some extreme forms of Sola Scriptura.)
> >     ]
> > 
> > Pope John Paul's words don't deny a role for the
> > epiclesis; they just rely on
> > the Western understanding, without denying the
> > Eastern understanding.
> > 
> > The Baltimore Catechism, as with any Western
> > catechism, is simply explaining the
> > faith in terms of the worldview of those it serves. 
> > There is nothing wrong with
> > that, but none of the above constitute a formal
> > definition of faith.  If they
> > did, the Eastern Catholics would be right out the
> > door.
> > 
> > The Western Catholic Church authoritatively teaches
> > what you're defending and
> > what we both believe; but she also acknowledges as
> > valid the understandings and
> > expressions of the East.  So, in an Eastern church,
> > the best is to do as they
> > do, and not try to analyse the issue with a Western
> > outlook - instead accept,
> > believe, and leave the stopwatch at home.
> > 
> > God bless,
> > Stephen
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Quoting Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>:
> > 
> > > Stephen,
> > > 
> > > First of all, the liturgy of the Assyrian Church
> > of
> > > the East, which is the successor to the
> > Nestorians,
> > > does NOT even have a meaningful epiclesis. 
> > > 
> > > You can read their complete liturgy at
> > >
> >
> http://alumni.cs.ucsb.edu/~evodius/liturgy/mariaddai.htm
> > > 
> > > Second, the Chaldean Catholic Church definitely
> > DOES
> > > use the words of institution in their Mass at
> > >
> >
> http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
> > > 
> > > You won't have any trouble finding it, as it is
> > > printed in BOLD for emphasis.
> > > 
> > > As for the Vatican document you mentioned, it
> > states
> > > in part:
> > > 
> > > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of the
> > > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> > therefore
> > > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> > Anaphora or
> > > Eucharistic Prayer...
> > > AND
> > > "...the words of Eucharistic Institution are
> > indeed
> > > present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in
> > a
> > > coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather
> > in
> > > a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated
> > in
> > > successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and
> > > intercession."
> > > AND
> > > "When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
> > > Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
> > > Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
> > > words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai
> > and
> > > Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
> > > Church of the East."
> > > 
> > > Furthermore, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church
> > > states:
> > > 
> > > "In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the
> > text),
> > > the power of the words and the action of Christ,
> > and
> > > the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally
> > > present under the species of bread and wine
> > Christ's
> > > body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross
> > > once for all.
> > > AND
> > > "The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament
> > are
> > > wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing
> > of
> > > the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest
> > pronounces
> > > the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added) spoken
> > by
> > > Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body
> > which
> > > will be given up for you...This is the cup of my
> > > blood...'
> > > AND
> > > "By the consecration, the transubstantiation of
> > the
> > > bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ
> > is
> > > brought about."
> > > 
> > > In addition, Pope John Paul II's 13 March 2005
> > letter
> > > to priests at
> > > http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HTH05.HTM
> > > states:
> > > 
> > > I will take as my inspiration the words of
> > Eucharistic
> > > CONSECRATION (emphasis added), which we say every
> > day
> > > in persona Christi in order to make present on our
> > > altars the sacrifice made once and for all on
> > Calvary.
> > > These words provide us with illuminating insights
> > for
> > > priestly spirituality: if the whole Church draws
> > life
> > > from the Eucharist, all the more then must the
> > life of
> > > a priest be "shaped" by the Eucharist. So for us,
> > the
> > > WORDS OF INSTITUTION (emphasis added) must be more
> > > than a formula of consecration: they must be a
> > > "formula of life".
> > > 
> > > Finally, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism No.4,
> > states:
> > > 
> > > 250. Q. How do the priests exercise this power of
> > > changing bread and wine into the body and blood of
> > > Christ?
> > > A. The priests exercise this power of changing
> > bread
> > > and wine into the body and blood of Christ through
> > the
> > > words of consecration in the Mass, which are the
> > words
> > > of Christ: "This is My body; this is My blood."
> > > 
> > > If you want more evidence, please let me know. The
> > > supply is limitless.
> > > 
> > > Art 
> > > 
> > > --- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za>
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi
> > > > 
> > > > Do lay people still take communion back home? 
> > It's
> > > > not something I've ever seen mentioned regarding
> > > > modern times.  In answer to the argument that
> > > > communion was "always" on the tongue, there is
> > ample
> > > > evidence from the Church Fathers that communion
> > was
> > > > taken home by laity for sick people - before
> > > > communion on the tongue became the norm.  In the
> > > > East, it's given by spoon, which many in the
> > West
> > > > have considered to be contrary to "Take and eat
> > ...
> > > > take and drink."
> > > > 
> > > > I don't think the words used when the priest
> > gives
> > > > out communion are really such an important issue
> > - I
> > > > showed 3 different forms (old Roman, new Roman,
> > > > Byzantine).
> > > > 
> > > > If we look at tha baptismal formula, there are
> > two
> > > > standard forms - "I baptise you ..." and "You
> > are
> > > > baptised ..."  Western Catholics use the former,
> > and
> > > > Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use the latter. 
> > All
> > > > consider both to be valid.
> > > > 
> > > > If we look at the bread used, only the Romans,
> > > > Maronites, Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) use
> > > > unleavened bread - all the rest in the Catholic
> > and
> > > > Orthodox world use leavened bread.  Today the
> > > > customs exist happily side by side; in the past
> > it
> > > > was an issue to fight over.
> > > > 
> > > > Of far greater concern is the order of the
> > > > Eucharistic Prayer - and prior to 1500, the
> > > > Mozarabic rite didn't have a formal Eucharistic
> > > > Prayer, and was flexible, and only after 1500
> > were
> > > > the words of institution (This is my Body ...
> > This
> > > > is my Blood) even required.  Even there, there
> > is no
> > > > agreement on when the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood of Christ.  In the West, there is
> > > > agreement (but not a formal definition) that it
> > > > occurs with the words of institution, which, on
> > > > their own, are considered to constitute the
> > > > necessary and sufficient sacramental form of the
> > > > Eucharist, and my understanding is that
> > > > transubstantiation is therefore completed here
> > also;
> > > > in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) there is
> > > > agreement that it is completed with the
> > epiclesis
> > > > (which comes after the words of institution in
> > the
> > > > Byzantine and Tridentine rites, but prior to the
> > > > words of consecration in the current ordinary
> > form.)
> > > >  Both points of view exist happily side by side
> > in
> > > > the Catholic Church united by the Pope.
> > > > 
> > > > So to an Eastern Catholic, if the epiclesis
> > comes
> > > > before the words of institution, the bread and
> > wine
> > > > are already transformed into the Body and Blood
> > of
> > > > Christ by the time the Latin priest says "On the
> > > > night he was betrayed" (the form used in the
> > current
> > > > ordinary rite, and the Eastern rites) or "On the
> > day
> > > > before he suffered" (in the Tridentine Mass.) 
> > The
> > > > epiclesis therefore is placed in a rather
> > strange
> > > > positon in the current ordinary rite for
> > Easterners,
> > > > and in the Tridentine and Eastern rites, after
> > the
> > > > words of institution, which it more comfortable
> > for
> > > > both sides.
> > > > 
> > > > Ironically, however "essential" the words of
> > > > institution (This is my Body ... This is my
> > Blood)
> > > > may be for the Roman-rite Catholics, they ARE
> > > > dispensable in some cases - the Holy Qurbana of
> > > > Addai and Mari omits them, and Rome has accepted
> > > > this as a valid liturgy used by Catholics today.
> > 
> > > > The reasoning: "the words of the institution of
> > the
> > > > Eucharist are in fact present in the anaphora of
> > > > Addai and Mari, not in the form of a coherent
> > > > narration and in a literal way but in a
> > eucological
> > > > and disseminated manner, that is to say they are
> > > > integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving,
> > praise
> > > > and intercession which follow."  [Pontifical
> > Council
> > > > for Promoting Christian Unity, Guidelines for
> > > > Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean
> > > > Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, July
> > 20,
> > > > 2001.]
> > > > 
> > > > Words of institution in green [Underlined
> > section =
> > > > the only audible words from the priest in the
> > > > Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) in the Liturgy of
> > St
> > > > John Chrysostom.]
> > > > Anamnesis in purple
> > > > Epiclesis in red
> > > > When the Real Presence becomes present in blue
> > > > 
> > > > Note the sequence:
> > > > Epiclesis, words of institution, anamnesis =
> > current
> > > > Mass
> > > > Words of institution, anamnesis, epiclesis =
> > Eastern
> > > > and Tridentine Mass
> > > > 
> > > > In other words, the following is the order of
> > our
> > > > current Mass [Eucharistic Prayer II] - 
> > > > 
> > > > Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all
> > > > holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts
> > to
> > > > make them holy, so that they may become for us
> > the
> > > > body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. [This
> > is
> > > > where the bread and wine become the Body and
> > Blood
> > > > for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > > > ...
> > > > Before he was given up to death, a death he
> > freely
> > > > accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks, He
> > > > broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and
> > said:
> > > > Take this, all of you, and eat it;
> > > > this is my body which will be given up for you.
> > > > When the supper was ended, he took the cup.
> > Again he
> > > > gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his
> > > > disciples, and said:
> > > > Take this, all of you, and drink from it;
> > > > this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the
> > new
> > > > and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for
> > you
> > > > and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do
> > this in
> > > > memory of me.
> > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > ...
> > > > In memory of his death and resurrection, we
> > offer
> > > > you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving
> > > > cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to
> > stand in
> > > > your presence and serve you. May all of us who
> > share
> > > > in the body and blood of Christ be brought
> > together
> > > > in unity by the Holy Spirit.
> > > > 
> > > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order
> > is
> > > > as follows [Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] -
> > > > 
> > > > Priest (inaudibly): Having come and having
> > fulfilled
> > > > the divine plan for us, on the night when He was
> > > > delivered up, or rather gave Himself up for the
> > life
> > > > of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure
> > and
> > > > blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed and
> > sanctified
> > > > it and, breaking it, gave it to His holy
> > disciples
> > > > and apostles, saying:
> > > > Priest (aloud): Take, eat, this is my body which
> > is
> > > > broken for you for the remission of sins.
> > > > Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after supper,
> > He
> > > > took the cup, saying:
> > > > Priest (aloud): Drink of this all of you; this
> > is my
> > > > blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for you
> > and
> > > > for many for the remission of sins.
> > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > ...
> > > > Priest (inaudibly): Remembering therefore this
> > > > saving commandment, and all that came to pass
> > for
> > > > our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection
> > on
> > > > the third day, the ascension into heaven, the
> > > > enthronement at the right hand, and the second
> > and
> > > > glorious coming.
> > > > ...
> > > > Priest: Offering You these gifts from Your own
> > > > gifts, in all and for all. We praise You, we
> > bless
> > > > You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You,
> > Lord
> > > > our God.
> > > > Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to
> > You
> > > > this spiritual worship without the shedding of
> > > > blood, and we ask, pray and entreat You: send
> > down
> > > > Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts
> > here
> > > > offered.
> > > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy bread.
> > > > Priest: And make this bread the precious Body of
> > > > Your Christ. Amen.
> > > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy cup.
> > > > Deacon: Father, bless them both.
> > > > Priest: Changing them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen.
> > > > Amen. Amen.
> > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > > > 
> > > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the order
> > is
> > > > as follows [Tridentine Mass] -
> > > > 
> > > > Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in
> > sanctas
> > > > ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis oculis in
> > > > caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem, tibi
> > > > gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque
> > discipulis
> > > > suis, dicens: Accipite et manducate ex hoc
> > omnes:
> > > > hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis
> > tradetur.
> > > > (Who, on the day before his Passion, took bread
> > in
> > > > his holy venerable hands, and looking up to
> > heaven
> > > > to you, God, his almighty Father, giving you
> > thanks,
> > > > he blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his
> > > > disciples, saying: Take, all of you, and eat of
> > it:
> > > > for this is my Body, which will be given up for
> > > > you).
> > > > Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens et
> > hunc
> > > > praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles
> > manus
> > > > suas, item tibi gratias agens benedixit,
> > deditque
> > > > discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et bibite ex
> > eo
> > > > omnes: his est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et
> > > > aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis
> > > > effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc facite
> > in
> > > > meam commemorationem. (Similarly, when supper
> > was
> > > > ended, taking also this magnificent chalice in
> > his
> > > > holy venerable hands, giving you thanks in like
> > > > manner, he blessed it, and gave it to his
> > disciples,
> > > > saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from
> > it:
> > > > for this is the cup of my Blood of the new and
> > > > eternal testament, which will be shed for you
> > and
> > > > for the many for the forgiveness of sins. Do
> > this in
> > > > memory of me.)
> > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > ...
> > > > Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed et
> > plebs
> > > > tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii tui, Domini
> > > > nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab
> > inferis
> > > > resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae
> > > > ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati tuae
> > de
> > > > tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam
> > sanctam,
> > > > hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctum vitae
> > aeternae et
> > > > Calicem salutis perpetuae. (Therefore, Lord, we
> > your
> > > > servants, and also your holy people, mindful of
> > the
> > > > so blessed passion of the same Christ, your Son,
> > our
> > > > Lord, and of his resurrection from the world
> > beneath
> > > > and his glorious ascension to heaven, offer to
> > your
> > > > exalted majesty, from what you have bestowed and
> > > > given, a pure victim, a holy victim, a stainless
> > > > victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the
> > > > Chalice of perpetual salvation).
> > > > ...
> > > > Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube haec
> > > > perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime
> > > > altare tuum, in conspectu divinae maiestatis
> > tuae;
> > > > ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione
> > > > sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem
> > > > sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti et
> > gratia
> > > > repleamur. (Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen)
> > (We
> > > > suppliantly beg you, almighty God, bid them to
> > be
> > > > brought by the hands of your holy Angel to your
> > > > altar on high, in the sight of your divine
> > majesty,
> > > > so that as many of us as will, by this
> > participation
> > > > of the altar, receive the sacred Body and Blood
> > of
> > > > your Son may be filled with every heavenly
> > blessing
> > > > and grace. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen]).
> > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > Body
> > > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > > > 
> > > > And then there is the issue of whether the
> > epiclesis
> > > > is an invocation of the Holy Spirit (current
> > Roman
> > > > norm, Orthodox), the Father (Tridentine Mass,
> > which
> > > > requires correction to invoke the Holy Spirit
> > for
> > > > Orthodox use) or Christ (I found one while
> > reading
> > > > up for yesterday's post.)
> > > > 
> > > > So my conclusion is that there are far greater
> > > > things to worry about than the words used to
> > give
> > > > communion.
> > > > 
> > > > Depending on the priest, Mass at the local
> > cathedral
> > > > may or may not include the creed, and communion
> > is
> > > > often enough by self-intinction with the chalice
> > > > left standing on the altar, and the priest
> > giving
> > > > the Host.  Those are far bigger concerns.
> > > > 
> > > > God bless,
> > > > Stephen
> > > > 
> > > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >   From: Dianne Dawson 
> > > >   To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group 
> > > >   Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:43 PM
> > > >   Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > NewAdvent.org
> > > > newsletter
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   He also substantiated that at least as far
> > back as
> > > > the sixth century the words of the priest were
> > not a
> > > > simple "The Body of Christ."  So how far back is
> > far
> > > > enough?  Why go back to the beginning for parts
> > of
> > > > the Mass and not others.  If you take part of
> > the
> > > > Mass back to the earliest times then you need to
> > > > take the whole Mass back.  If we do that then
> > > > Communion is not received at EVERY Mass.  Also,
> > > > ordinary people can take Communion back to their
> > > > homes to distribute to other people.  How far
> > back
> > > > would you purpose going back and are you willing
> > to
> > > > accept ALL of the changes that would entail
> > > > (remember that the Mass would not be in
> > English).
> > > > 
> > > >   Dianne
> > > > 
> > > >   Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >     You will note that Stephen substantiated my
> > > > statement
> > > >     that the distribution of Communion in the
> > > > current rite
> > > >     of the Mass is authentic to the early
> > Chruch,
> > > > while
> > > >     the Tridentine rite is NOT:
> > > > 
> > > >     In early times the words used by the priest
> > in
> > > > giving
> > > >     Holy Communion were, for the species of
> > bread,
> > > > "Corpus
> > > >     Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which the
> > > > receiver
> > > >     answered, "Amen."
> > > > 
> > > >     If you need further proof from other
> > > > authoratative
> > > >     sources, please let me know.
> > > > 
> > > >     Art
> > > > 
> > > >     --- Dianne Dawson wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >     > Stephen,
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Thank you for the wonderful and extensive
> > > >     > explanation.
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Dianne
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Stephen Korsman wrote:
> > > >     > Hi
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Well, there were quiet moments, but the
> > church
> > > > was
> > > >     > a very small one, and very well designed
> > > >     > accoustically, even though it was quite a
> > > > primitive
> > > >     > building, being very rural. It was a
> > > > Latin-rite
> > > >     > building; the congregation was mixed
> > religion
> > > >     > because there were no Orthodox priests in
> > the
> > > > area -
> > > >     > this was their visiting Catholicos from
> > India.
> > > > So
> > > >     > most could be heard; and the clouds of
> > incense
> > > > were
> > > >     > thick, but didn't mask the view - not
> > quite.
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > In terms of not hearing what the priest
> > does,
> > > > the
> > > >     > Byzantines are worse - you don't even see
> > the
> > > > priest
> > > >     > during the consecration. I've never been
> > to
> > > > their
> > > >     > liturgies, but there are plenty of
> > bracketed
> > > > "(in a
> > > >     > low voice)" statements throughout the copy
> > of
> > > > the
> > > >     > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have. I've
> > put
> > > > it
> > > >     > in my Google Docs -
> > > >     >
> > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j
> > > > ... I
> > > >     > have a nice PDF in Greek and English if
> > anyone
> > > > wants
> > > >     > it.
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Regarding the words said by the priest
> > when
> > > >     > communion was received, I've done a bit of
> > > >     > searching, and can only find the following
> > (on
> > > > the
> > > >     > Melkite Catholic site) - 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > In early times the words used by the
> > priest in
> > > >     > giving Holy Communion were, for the
> > species of
> > > >     > bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of
> > Christ" -
> > > > to
> > > >     > which the receiver answered, "Amen"; and
> > for
> > > > the
> > > >     > species of wine, "Sanguis Christi poculum
> > > > Saluti" -
> > > >     > "The Blood of Christ, the cup of
> > Salvation" -
> > > > to
> > > >     > which "Amen" was also answered. About the
> > time
> > > > of
> > > >     > Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century) the
> > > > form had
> > > >     > changed into "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu
> > > > Christi
> > > >     > conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body or
> > our
> > > > Lord
> > > >     > Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to
> > which
> > > > the
> > > >     > receiver would respond, as before "Amen."
> > With
> > > >     > Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we find
> > the
> > > > form,
> > > >     > "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ
> > > > preserve you
> > > >     > unto life everlasting."
> > > >     > -
> > http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> > custodiat
> > > > animam
> > > >     > meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. - Tridentine
> > > > Mass,
> > > >     > Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
> > > >     > - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
> > > >     > - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
> > > >     > - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu
> > Christi
> > > >     > custodiat corpus meam in vitam eternam.
> > Amen.
> > > >     > - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's most
> > > > recent
> > > >     > form, as far as I can work out, but dates
> > to
> > > > the
> > > >     > 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that they
> > > > intinct, or
> > > >     > that this refers to the priest only.)
> > > >     > - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video,
> > which I
> > > >     > cannot differentiate from the Tridentine
> > Mass,
> > > >     > having never been to either:
> > > >     > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
> > > >     > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic, using
> > > >     > leavened bread, unlike the Latin rite),
> > the
> > > >     > communicant says "Amen":
> > > >     > [The Celebrant administers the Body and
> > Blood
> > > >     > from the Paten, saying:]
> > > >     > [From the Sacrament of Baptism:
> > > >     > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> > > > Christ be
> > > >     > to thee unto life eternal.
> > > >     > R. Amen.]
> > > >     > [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
> > > >     > May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus
> > > > Christ, the
> > > >     > Son of the living and
> > > >     > most high God, be to thee unto life
> > eternal.
> > > >     > R. Amen.]
> > > >     > [The Chalice is administered with the
> > words:
> > > >     > May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ be
> > to
> > > > thee
> > > >     > unto life eternal.
> > > >     > R. Amen.
> > > >     > Priest: Corpus Christ
> > > >     > Response: Amen
> > > >     > - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the date,
> > but
> > > >     > suppression of the rite was attempted in
> > > > 1060.)
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > And most different of all, the text of the
> > > > Divine
> > > >     > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the
> > > > following:
> > > >     > The servant of God (Name) receives the
> > Body
> > > > and
> > > >     > Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins
> > and
> > > > eternal
> > > >     > life.
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > God bless,
> > > >     > Stephen
> > > >     > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >     > From: Art Kelly 
> > > >     > To: Apologetics Group 
> > > >     > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
> > > >     > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > > NewAdvent.org
> > > >     > newsletter
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Stephen,
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Did the celebrant turn his back to the
> > > > congregation
> > > >     > and speak in a deliberately low voice so
> > no
> > > > one
> > > >     > could
> > > >     > see or hear what was happening on the
> > altar?
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Art
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > --- Stephen Korsman 
> > > >     > wrote:
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > > Hi
> > > >     > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >     > > From: Dianne Dawson 
> > > >     > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group 
> > > >     > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43 AM
> > > >     > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > >     > NewAdvent.org
> > > >     > > newsletter
> > > >     > > 
> > > >     > > 
> > > >     > > If someone had never been to a Mass (in
> > any
> > > >     > > language) then that one might fly,
> > otherwise
> > > > it's
> > > >     > a
> > > >     > > weak argument. If you were traveling out
> > of
> > > > the
> > > >     > > country would you avoid going to Mass
> > just
> > > > because
> > > >     > > you didn't understand every word the
> > priest
> > > > spoke?
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > > I doubt it because you are familiar with
> > the
> > > >     > format
> > > >     > > and what is happening and when.
> > Actually,
> > > > that is
> > > >     > > one of the best reason to have the Mass
> > in
> > > > Latin. 
> > > >     > > There I must agree. I've been to a Novus
> > > > Ordo
> > > >     > Latin
> > > >     > > Mass, which was quite comprehendable
> > even
> > > > though I
> > > >     > > only had 2 years of school Latin at the
> > > > time. 
> > > >     > I've
> > > >     > > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't
> > > > understand at
> > > >     > > all, but I knew what was going on. I've
> > even
> > > > to a
> > > >     > > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is not
> > > > like
> > > >     > ours,
> > > >     > > but Eastern rite, and they have their
> > > > Catholic
> > > >     > > equivalents. Even there, I could follow,
> > > > even
> > > >     > > though it was a rite I'd never been to,
> > and
> > > > in a
> > > >     > > language I'd never heard.
> > > >     > > 
> > > >     > > God bless,
> > > >     > > Stephen
> > > >     > > --
> > > >     > > Stephen Korsman
> > > >     > > skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> > > >     > > The Theotokos Website
> > > >     > > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed
> > > >     > > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed
> > > >     > > 
> > > >     > > IC | XC
> > > >     > > ---------
> > > >     > > NI | KA
> > > >     > > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > >     > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > >     > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > >     > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > >     > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > >     > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > >     > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > >     > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     >
> > > >    
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > >     > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on
> > > > flights and
> > > >     > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
> > > >     > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> > > >     >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >     > Apologetics mailing list
> > > >     > Apologetics at gathman.org
> > > >     >
> > http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Like a deer that longs for running waters
> > so
> > > > my soul
> > > >     > longs for you, O God.
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > Ps 42:1
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > 
> > > >     > ---------------------------------
> > > >     > Need a vacation? Get great deals to
> > amazing
> > > > places
> > > >     > on Yahoo! Travel. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >     ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > >     13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > >     Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > >     (703) 904-3763 home
> > > >     (703) 396-6956 work
> > > >     arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > >     art.kelly at cox.net
> > > >     ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >    
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
> > > > for the edge of your seat? 
> > > >     Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. 
> > > >     http://tv.yahoo.com/
> > > >    
> > _______________________________________________
> > > >     Apologetics mailing list
> > > >     Apologetics at gathman.org
> > > >     http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   Like a deer that longs for running waters so
> > my
> > > > soul longs for you, O God.
> > > >   Ps 42:1
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >   Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our
> > Network
> > > > Research Panel today! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > 
> > > 
> > >      
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network
> > Research Panel today!  
> > >
> >
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Apologetics mailing list
> > > Apologetics at gathman.org
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> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Apologetics mailing list
> > Apologetics at gathman.org
> > http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> > 
> > <!DSPAM:11492707DF71956270515784>
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> ART KELLY, ATM-S
> 13524 Brightfield Lane
> Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> (703) 904-3763 home
> (703) 396-6956 work
> arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> art.kelly at cox.net
> ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> 
> 
>      
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!  
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 
> 
> 
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>