[Apologetics] Re: From NewAdvent.org newsletter
Art Kelly
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
Tue Sep 4 00:26:03 EDT 2007
Stephen,
Much of what you have written is contradictory and
self-refuting.
To suggest that the Chaldean Catholic Church does not
use the Words of Institution in their Mass is mind
boggling.
The Catholic Church took a hard look at the liturgy of
the Assyrian Church of the East because of the lack of
Words of Institution. Since there are no Catholic
rites like that--and never have been--it was necessary
to determine if the Assyrian liturgy was valid before
agreeing to allow Chaldeans to seek out an Assyrian
minister in extraordinary circumstances.
(Since both of these Christian denominations are
centered in Iraq, this is not a hypothetical
situation.)
If the Chaldeans did not have the Words of Institution
in their Mass, there would not have been a problem.
But the Chaldean Mass and Assyrian liturgy were, and
are, radically DIFFERENT in regard to the
Consecration.
Ultimately, the Vatican decided the Words of
Institution—which it said were INDISPENSABLE—were
contained in the Assyrian liturgy.
I think the Assyrians may have privately assured the
Vatican that they almost always use the Words of
Institution. Hence, the statement by the Vatican,
“When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and
Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
Church of the East.”
Of course, that Vatican statement would make no sense
whatsoever if any Chaldean Catholic Masses lacked the
Words of Institution.
This is the third time I’ve provided you a link to the
Chaldean Mass with the Words of Institution in BOLD
for special emphasis at
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
You replied that “You also provided a link to the form
which omits the words of institution.”
Actually, in error I provided a link to a version of
the “Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles, Composed by St.
Adoni and St. Mari, Teachers of the Easterners” from
the library of the University of California at Santa
Barbara (UCSB).
I should have provided a link to the actual liturgy of
the Assyrian Church of the East at
http://www.cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html
As you can see, it is different from the Catholic
Chaldean Mass. And both appear to be different from
the version at UCSB.
The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity’s
“Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the
Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East”
never mentions the Epiclesis. No claim was made that
the Assyrian liturgy was valid because of an
Epiclesis.
In fact, you cannot produce any Vatican document that
states that an Epiclesis consecrates the elements. As
I indicated in my two previous messages, the Catechism
of the Catholic Church makes it incontrovertible that
the Words of Institution are what consecrates.
It is true that the Epiclesis is a nice prayer and has
long been used in many liturgical functions. The 1913
Catholic Encyclopedia states:
It should be noticed that the Epiclesis for the Holy
Eucharist is only one of many such forms. In other
sacraments and blessings similar prayers were used, to
ask God to send His Holy Spirit to sanctify the
matter. There was an Epiclesis for the water of
baptism. Tertullian (De bapt., iv), Optatus of Mileve
("De schism. Don., III, ii, VI, iii, in "Corp. Script.
eccl. Latin.", vol. XXVI, 69, 148, 149), St. Jerome
(Contra Lucif., vi, vii), St. Augustine (De bapt., V,
xx, xxvii), in the West; and St. Basil (De Spir.
Sancto, xv, 35), St. Gregory of Nyssa (Orat. cat.
magn. xxxiii), and St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Cat. iii,
3), in the East, refer to it. In Egypt especially,
Epiclesis were used to bless wine, oil, milk, etc. In
all these cases (including that of the Holy Eucharist)
the idea of invoking the Holy Ghost to sanctify is a
natural one derived from Scripture (Joel 2:32; Acts
2:21: ho an epikalesetai to onoma kyriou . . .; cf.
Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2).
You did make reference several times in your message
to “the PCPCU document,” but as far as I can
determine, you never identified this document. Please
provide the exact name, date, and author of it.
Incredibly, you also claim the dogmas of the Catholic
Church do not apply to Eastern Rite Catholics, because
“The Treaty of Brest remains in force, which decrees
unity between Western and Byzantine Catholics without
concern over the differences regarding purgatory.”
I’ve never heard of the Treaty of Brest, but I’ll look
into it. However, treaties are usually between
governments. I’ve never heard of one making a
theological declaration. If this one did, then it was
abrogated many centuries ago.
One more time, here’s what Pope John Paul II wrote
about the universal, binding teachings in the
Catechism on the WHOLE church of ALL rites:
“Following the renewal of the Liturgy and the new
codification of the canon law of the Latin Church AND
that of the Oriental Catholic Churches, this catechism
will make a very important contribution to that work
of renewing the WHOLE life of the Church, as desired
and begun by the Second Vatican Council
“It can be said that this Catechism is the result of
the collaboration of the WHOLE Episcopate of the
Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation
to share responsibility for an enterprise which
directly concerns the life of the Church. This
response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because
the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what
could be called the "symphony" of the faith. The
achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the
collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to
the Church's CATHOLICITY
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church
is a statement
of the Church's faith and of CATHOLIC doctrine,
attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the
Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium.
“I DECLARE it to be a SURE NORM for teaching the faith
and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for
ecclesial COMMUNION. May it serve the renewal to
which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of
God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the
undiminished light of the Kingdom!
“The approval and publication of the Catechism of the
Catholic Church represent a service which the
Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy
Catholic Church, to ALL the particular Churches in
peace and COMMUNION with the Apostolic See: the
service, that is, of supporting and confirming the
faith of ALL the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32),
as well as of strengthening the bonds of UNITY in the
SAME apostolic faith.
“Therefore, I ask ALL the Church's Pastors and the
Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a
spirit of COMMUNION and to use it ASSIDUOUSLY in
fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and
calling people to the Gospel life.
“This catechism is given to them that it may be a SURE
and AUTHENTIC reference text for teaching catholic
DOCTRINE and particularly for preparing local
catechisms. It is also offered to ALL the faithful who
wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable
riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to
support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy
desire for the unity of all Christians, showing
carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the
CATHOLIC faith.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is
offered to every individual who asks us to give an
account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and
who wants to KNOW what the Catholic Church BELIEVES.”
This INCLUDES Purgatory, original sin, the Immaculate
Conception, transubstantiation, the primacy of the
Bishop of Rome, and the Words of Institution.
Art
--- skorsman at theotokos.co.za wrote:
> Hi
>
> I don't think this is something worth arguing about.
> In general, East vs West
> differences are not - they make fascinating
>
> discussion, but if each side respect the other side,
> and unity is not
> compromised, why fight?
>
> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes is
> crystal
> > clear that the words of institution consecrate the
> > bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.
> The
> > Epiclesis is fine, but it is not essential.
>
> Not to Western Catholics, but Eastern Catholics and
> Orthodox consider it to be
> essential. *Some* may have become more Westernised
> - especially the Indians
> and Maronites - but not all.
>
> > Your reply that, “The CCC quote is
> > interesting—although it expresses a Western
> > understanding, it also affirms the role of the
> > epiclesis
It can still be criticized by Eastern
> > Christians
”
> >
> > EVERY word in the Catechism is binding on ALL
> segments
> > of the CATHOLIC Church, INCLUDING Eastern rite
> > Catholics.
>
> Who are still permitted to omit the Filioque, find
> the Immaculate Conception to
> be a meaningless definition, reject the Western
> concept of original sin. The
> Treaty of Brest remains in force, which decrees
> unity between Western and
> Byzantine Catholics without concern over the
> differences regarding purgatory.
>
> > Pope John Paul II wrote:
> >
> > “Following the renewal of the Liturgy and the new
> > codification of the canon law of the Latin Church
> AND
> > that of the Oriental Catholic Churches, this
> catechism
> > will make a very important contribution to that
> work
> > of renewing the WHOLE life of the Church, as
> desired
> > and begun by the Second Vatican Council
> >
> > “It can be said that this Catechism is the result
> of
> > the collaboration of the WHOLE Episcopate of the
> > Catholic Church, who generously accepted my
> invitation
> > to share responsibility for an enterprise which
> > directly concerns the life of the Church. This
> > response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy,
> because
> > the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what
> > could be called the "symphony" of the faith. The
> > achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the
> > collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies
> to
> > the Church's CATHOLICITY
> >
> > “The Catechism of the Catholic Church
is a
> statement
> > of the Church's faith and of CATHOLIC doctrine,
> > attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the
> > Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium.
> I
> > DECLARE it to be a SURE NORM for teaching the
> faith
> > and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for
> > ecclesial COMMUNION. May it serve the renewal to
> > which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church
> of
> > God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the
> > undiminished light of the Kingdom!
> >
> > “The approval and publication of the Catechism of
> the
> > Catholic Church represent a service which the
> > Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy
> > Catholic Church, to ALL the particular Churches in
> > peace and COMMUNION with the Apostolic See: the
> > service, that is, of supporting and confirming the
> > faith of ALL the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk
> 22:32),
> > as well as of strengthening the bonds of UNITY in
> the
> > SAME apostolic faith.
> >
> > “Therefore, I ask ALL the Church's Pastors and the
> > Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a
> > spirit of COMMUNION and to use it ASSIDUOUSLY in
> > fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith
> and
> > calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism
> is
> > given to them that it may be a SURE and AUTHENTIC
> > reference text for teaching catholic DOCTRINE and
> > particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is
> > also offered to ALL the faithful who wish to
> deepen
> > their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of
> > salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support
> > ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy
> desire
> > for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully
> the
> > content and wondrous harmony of the catholic
> faith.
> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is
> > offered to every individual who asks us to give an
> > account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15)
> and
> > who wants to KNOW what the Catholic Church
> BELIEVES.”
>
> I agree with all of the above. But the CCC still
> tends to express what the
> Catholic Church believes in a Western way. The
>
> same faith can be expressed in an Eastern way.
>
> > With the binding, mandatory nature of the
> Catechism
> > affirmed, it states of the Eucharist:
> >
> > "In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the
> text),
> > the power of the words and the action of Christ,
> and
> > the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally
> > present under the species of bread and wine
> Christ's
> > body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross
> > once for all
> >
> > "The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament
> are
> > wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing
> of
> > the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest
> pronounces
> > the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added) spoken
> by
> > Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body
> which
> > will be given up for you...This is the cup of my
> > blood...'
> >
> > "By the CONSECRATION, the transubstantiation of
> the
> > bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ
> is
> > brought about.”
> >
> > There can be no doubt that the words of
> institution
> > are what transform the bread and wine into the
> body
> > and blood of Jesus. The Epiclesis does NOT do
> that
> > and is not necessary.
>
> Not to Western Catholics. But it's worth noting
> that the epiclesis is
> mentioned
> in the passage you quote - which is what I said was
> the link to the East.
>
> I believe what has been stated as the norm for the
> West. That is my belief.
> But although it has been stated
>
> authoritatively as the belief of the West, the
> Eastern opinion has not been
> rejected as false, and therefore both can and
>
> do exist side by side in the Catholic Church today.
>
> > From the time of the early beginning of the
> Tridentine
> > rite to the time of the current rite--about 1,300
> > years--the Mass had NO Epiclesis.
>
> The epiclesis, in the form of the Supplices te
> rogamus prayer, can be found in
> the Tridentine liturgy, and was carried over
>
> from the form prior to the Tridentine liturgy. It
> may have faded for some time,
> but is certainly present in the form used
>
> since at least the 1400's. Supplices te rogamus is
> generally accepted as the
> epiclesis.
>
> > In an article on the Epiclesis, the 1913 Catholic
> > Encyclopedia states:
> >
> > “Nor is there any doubt that the Western rites at
> one
> > time contained similar invocations
It seems that
> an
> > early insistence on the words of Institution as
> the
> > form of Consecration (see, for instance,
> > Pseudo-Ambrose, "De Mysteriis", IX, 52, and "De
> > Sacramentis", IV, 4, 14-15, 23; St. Augustine,
> Sermon
> > 227) led in the West to the neglect and mutilation
> of
> > the Epiclesis
> >
> > “The Catholic Church has decided the question by
> > making us kneel and adore the Holy Eucharist
> > immediately after the words of Institution, and by
> > letting her old Invocation practically disappear
>
> I don't understand that statement. Nobody kneels
> immediately after the words of
> institution. According to the rubrics for
>
> the last 500 years (Tridentine liturgy till 1962,
> Tridentine liturgy after 1962,
> current ordinary Roman liturgy), we are
>
> already kneeling before that point, and we can't
> kneel further when that point
> arrives. In some places, Westerners no
>
> longer kneel, and the Easterners don't kneel at any
> time. Perhaps that refers
> to pre-Tridentine liturgies.
>
> > “The final argument against the Epiclesis as
> > Consecration-form is the account of the Last
> Supper in
> > the Gospels. We know what Christ did then, and
> that He
> > told us to do the same thing. There is NO hint of
> an
> > Epiclesis at the Last Supper.”
>
> That is true. Both sides have their arguments, and
> neither set of arguments
> has
> been rejected by the Catholic Church. Each
> conclusion is accepted on its
> respective side, and is respected by the other side.
>
> > Your statement is absolutely false that “the
> Chaldean
> > Catholics do have the words of institution as an
> > OPTIONAL wording; this was added recently, and
> many
> > Catholics are returning to the original form
> WITHOUT
> > these words. So many Chaldeans use the liturgy
> with
> > the words of institution, and many use it WITHOUT
> > them; both are valid.”
>
> I'm not sure which part is false. It is not
> compulsory in the form we use
> amongst the Catholics or Orthodox who use the
>
> rite - the words are interspersed amongst the other
> prayers, which is
> sufficient. It may be used - hence the words in
> bold
>
> - but it need not be used in that structured form.
> The liturgy is valid in
> both forms, and practices today in both forms
>
> in both Catholic and Orthodox communities. Why
> would the PCPCU document
> discussing this problem state what it does if that
>
> were not the case?
>
> > The words of institution are MANDATORY in the
> Chaldean
> > Catholic Church
>
> Then why the statement from the PCPCU that says they
> are not mandatory in the
> structured form known in the West?
>
> > and always have been since 1672 when
> > Patriarch Joseph I broke away from the Nestorians,
> > made a public profession of the Catholic faith,
> and
> > obtained recognition from Rome.
>
> Perhaps that statement of history applies to the
> Chaldeans who broke away from
> the Nestorians in 1672. It does not apply
>
> to the modern Chaldeans joining the Catholic Church.
>
> > The very first thing
> > he did was insert the words of institution in the
> > liturgy. (A History of the Chaldean Mass, William
> F.
> > Macomber, Ph.D.)
>
> In 1672. The current PCPCU norms do not require
> that to happen today.
> Macomber's text was written 24 years prior to the
>
> PCPCU document, which it could therefore not take
> into account.
>
> The document states:
>
> "The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is notable because,
> from time immemorial, it has
> been used without a recitation of the
>
> Institution Narrative. As the Catholic Church
> considers the words of the
> Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
>
> therefore indispensable part of the Anaphora or
> Eucharistic Prayer, a long and
> careful study was undertaken of the Anaphora
>
> of Addai and Mari, from a historical, liturgical and
> theological perspective, at
> the end of which the Congregation for the
>
> Doctrine of Faith on January 17th, 2001 concluded
> that this Anaphora can be
> considered valid. H.H. Pope John Paul II has
>
> approved this decision."
>
> If the recitation of the institution narrative were
> required, it would have been
> added. Instead, the anaphora was accepted
>
> as valid as it was.
>
> The words are there "not in a coherent narrative way
> and ad litteram, but rather
> in a dispersed euchological way, that is,
>
> integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving,
> praise and intercession."
>
> In other words they are NOT there as a formal
> recitation as we have them at our
> Mass. And the CDF and HH JPII consider the
>
> anaphora to be valid in spite of that.
>
> Yes, they have been adopted by some in the East and
> some in the West, but not
> all in the East and not all in the West. If
>
> the words of institution were now universally used
> (which they are not), the CDF
> statement in 2001 was made prior to
>
> complete univeral use, or else it would have been a
> pointless statement.
>
> > I previously provided you a link to the liturgy of
> the
> > Chaldean Mass at
> >
>
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
>
> You also provided a link to the form which omits the
> words of institution.
>
> > The words of institution are so important they are
> > listed in BOLD. They are NOT optional. They are
> > absolutely required in the Chaldean Mass!
>
> True, but not necessarily in actual literal form.
> As an indirect form they are
> acceptable. As stated by the document previously
> cited. The words in bold on
> that website can be omitted because, as the
>
> document states, they are included in other forms
> elsewhere in the prayers.
> They are required, but not in the form we use.
>
> Why would the document state what it does if they
> are required?
>
> > Furthermore, the apparent lack of these words of
> > institution that was the issue in determining if
> > Catholics and members of the Assyrian Church of
> the
> > East (the current name for the Nestorians, who
> have
> > since renounced their heretical views) could seek
> out
> > each other’s ministers in the case of an
> emergency.
> > (As previously noted, the liturgy of the Assyrian
> > Church of the East lacks a meaningful Epiclesis.)
>
> I can see the epiclesis there. What it lacks is a
> coherent institution
> narrative, as stated by the PCPCU.
>
> The epiclesis:
>
> And may there come, O my Lord, your Holy Spirit, and
> may he rest upon this
> oblation of your servants. May he bless it and
> hallow it, and may it be for us,
> O my Lord, for the pardon of debts, the forgiveness
> of sins, the great hope of
> resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the
> kingdom of heaven with all
> who have been well-pleasing before you. And for all
> this great and marvelous
> dispensation towards us we will give thanks to you
> and praise you without
> ceasing in your church, which is saved by the
> precious blood of your Christ -
> with unclosed mouth and open face,
>
> In your link, it is specifically labelled
> "Invocation of the Holy Spirit."
>
> It is also specifically called an epiclesis in the
> document we are both quoting
> below.
>
> > The Vatican stated:
> >
> > “When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are
> > permitted to participate and to receive Holy
> Communion
> > in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist;
> in
> > the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is
> > physically or morally impossible to approach a
> > Catholic minister, are permitted to participate
> and to
> > receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration
> of
> > the Holy Eucharist
> >
> > “When Chaldean faithful are participating in an
> > Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the
> > Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the
> > words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai
> and
> > Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian
> > Church of the East.”
>
> "warmly invited" - that does not mean compulsory.
>
> "Indeed, the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of
> the East, assembled in 1978 in
> Baghdad, offered ministers in the Assyrian Church
> the option of reciting the
> words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai
> and Mari. Although this
> option does not affect the validity of the Anaphora
> of Addai and Mari, it might
> have a particular relevance from a liturgical, as
> well as an ecumenical
> viewpoint."
>
> > I’ve read a couple of articles indicating that,
> while
> > the words of institution are not contained in the
> > Assyrian liturgy, they are actually used.
>
> I find that a bit hard to believe. If they were
> actually used, there would be
> no need for study into the matter, and no need for
> the CDF to make a statement
> that the liturgy without them is still valid.
>
> > They are
> > not printed because, according to the source, they
> > were considered to be too holy to commit to paper.
>
> I'm not so sure about that one ... perhaps in some
> places, but, as Macomber
> states elsewhere in the article you cite, some
> missals did exist with those
> words present - sometimes in the actual missal,
> usually on a slip of paper
> added in, if they were present at all.
>
> The fact remains that they are not always present in
> a coherent, literal way,
> but indirectly, and this does not invalidate the
> consecration.
>
> > Of course, since the words of institution are
> > contained in Scripture, I cannot see why they
> could
> > not be written in their liturgy. Nevertheless,
> the
> > Assyrian Church of the East hinted as much in two
> of
> > their documents on this subject.
> >
> > The Joint Committee for Theological Dialogue,
> November
> > 1995, states, “In any case, from the beginning,
> the
> > Church of the East always believed, as the
> Catholic
> > Church, that what she performs is what was DONE BY
> > CHRIST and his disciples in the Last Supper, and
> what
> > CHRIST HAS ORDERED his disciples to do in his
> memory
> > until he comes again.”
> >
> > And in July 2001, a joint document with the
> Pontifical
> > Council For Promoting Christian Unity, states:
> >
> > “In conscience of faith, the Assyrian Church of
> the
> > East was always convinced to celebrate the
> Eucharist
> > validly and so to perform in its FULLNESS what
> Jesus
> > Christ ASKED his disciples to do.”
>
> They also explain how and where the words of
> institution exist in the Anaphora
> of Addai and Mari: not in a coherent way, but rather
> as a quasi-narrative.
>
> "The words of the Eucharistic Institution are indeed
> present in the Anaphora of
> Addai and Mari, not in a coherent way and ad
> litteram, but rather in a
> dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in
> prayers of thanksgiving,
> praise and intercession. All these elements
> constitute a “quasi-narrative” of
> the Eucharistic Institution. In the central part of
> the Anaphora, together with
> the Epiclesis, explicit references are made to the
> eucharistic Body and Blood of
> Jesus Christ (“O my Lord, in thy manifold and
> ineffable mercies, make a good and
> gracious remembrance for all the upright and just
> fathers who were pleasing
> before thee, in the commemoration of the body and
> blood of thy Christ, which we
> offer to thee upon the pure and holy altar, as thou
> hast taught us”), to the
> life-giving mystery of Jesus’ passion, death and
> resurrection, which is
> actually commemorated and celebrated (“that all the
> inhabitants of the world
> may know thee ... and we also, O my Lord, thy
> unworthy, frail and miserable
> servants who are gathered and stand before thee, and
> have received by tradition
> the example which is from thee, rejoicing and
> glorifying and exalting and
> commemorating and celebrating this great and awesome
> mystery of the passion and
> death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ”),
> to the eucharistic offering
> for the forgiveness of the sins, to the
> eschatological dimension of the
> eucharistic celebration and to the Lord’s command to
> 'do this in memory of me'
> (“And let thy Holy Spirit come, O my Lord, and rest
> upon this offering of thy
> servants, and bless it and sanctify it that it my be
> to us, O my Lord, for the
> pardon of sins, and for the forgiveness of
> shortcomings, and for the great hope
> of the resurrection from the dead, and for new life
> in the kingdom of heaven
> with all who have been pleasing before thee”)."
>
> So, although there is nothing like "This is my body"
> and "This is my blood" in
> the Anaphora of Addai and Mari (unless, of course,
> it is optionally inserted),
> the consecration is still valid.
>
> > All of this discussion originated with a contrast
> of
> > the Tridentine Rite with the current rite of the
> Mass.
>
> A good discussion.
>
> > My point was that in the distribution of
> Communion,
> > the current rite is identical to the very earliest
> > records of the Church. And the use of the
> Epiclesis
> > is another example of something in the early
> Masses
> > that was reinstated in the current rite.
>
> Supplices te rogamus was present since the 1400's.
>
> Most humbly we implore Thee, Almighty God, bid these
> offerings to be brought by
> the hands of Thy Holy Angel to Thine altar on high,
> before the face of Thy
> Divine Majesty; that as many of us as shall receive
> the most Sacred + Body and
> + Blood of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this
> altar, may be filled with
> every heavenly blessing and grace. Through the same
> Christ our Lord. Amen.
>
> What is probably meant is that lack of a mention of
> the Holy Spirit in the
> epiclesis. That is what was reinstated.
>
> > When I have time, I’ll look into this matter more
> > extensively to see if I can find other examples of
> > where the current rite of the Mass corresponds to
> the
> > celebration of the Mass before the Tridentine rite
> > existed.
> >
> > Art
>
> The newer Eucharistic prayers were adopted from
> other rites, I think. I've
> written enough, and won't look that up now. I have
> it somewhere at home.
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
>
> > --- skorsman at theotokos.co.za wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > It's certainly true that the Chaldean Catholics
> do
> > > have the words of
> > > institution
> > > as an optional wording; this was added recently,
> and
> > > many Catholics are
> > > returning to the original form without these
> words.
> > > So many Chaldeans use the
> > > liturgy with the words of institution, and many
> use
> > > it without them; both are
> > > valid.
> > >
> > > > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of
> the
> > > > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> > > therefore
> > > > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> > > Anaphora or
> > > > Eucharistic Prayer...
> > >
> > > "Indispensable" needs obvious clarification - as
> > > explained, the words do not
> > > need to be present in a coherent narrative way.
> In
> > > the modified form, they
> > > are,
> > > just as they are in ours. In the unmodified
> form of
> > > the liturgy, they are not.
> > > They are contained in other forms in that
> liturgy,
> > > but not as a particular
> > > blessing / consecration with the priest saying
> what
> > > we are used to hearing him
> > > say, and not as part of the prayers and
> blessings at
> > > the time of consecration.
> > >
> > > The CCC quote is interesting - although it
> expresses
> > > the Western understanding,
> > > it also affirms the role of the epiclesis.
> Probably
> > > because the CCC was
> > > designed to be more than just a Western
> document,
> > > but instead tried to
> > > accommodate the Eastern understanding as well.
> It
> > > can still be criticised by
> > > the Eastern Christians - it teaches the Western
> > > understanding of original sin,
> > > which is not accepted by most Eastern Catholics
> and
> > > Orthodox, and the
> > > Immaculate Conception, which is a product of the
> > > Western concept of original
> > > sin.
> > >
> > > [ It's important to realise that we share
> the
> > > same faith, but not
> > > necessarily the same explanations and wording.
> They
> > > believe Mary was full of
> > > grace, and preserved sinless, but a definition
> that
> > > says she was free from the
> > > stain of sin is meaningless because it relies on
> the
> > > Western idea of what a
> > > stain of sin is; the Easterners have no such
> > > concept. It is possible to define
> > > one truth in two different ways - the fact that
> some
> > > Catholics are free from the
> > > need to adhere to the concepts of purgatory, the
> > > Immaculate Conception, original
> > > sin, transubstantiation, etc as explained by
> Western
> > > reasoning, is ample
> > > evidence that the Church acknowledges this. The
> > > declaration that the Syrian
> > > Orthodox and the Catholics share the same faith,
> > > without them having to renouce
> > > what they've always taught, and what we've
> always
> > > incorrectly labelled
> > > Monophysism, was a huge step in that direction.
> > > That the Eastern Catholics are
> > > free to omit "Filioque" from their creed is
> > > certainly a sign of a shared faith
> > > with different expressions. If you listen to
> what's
> > > happening behind the
> > > words, the explanations, the processes, shared
> truth
> > > is even clearer. The
> > > substance of the faith is shared; the accidents
> -
> > > wording, form, experience -
> > > not always. And that can be misleading. It
> might
> > > sound downright heretical
> > > for the East to ignore our explanations of
> > > transubstiation or the Filioque, if
> > > we don't take what is meant into account, and
> focus
> > > on the words used instead
> > > (sort of like some extreme forms of Sola
> Scriptura.)
> > > ]
> > >
> > > Pope John Paul's words don't deny a role for the
> > > epiclesis; they just rely on
> > > the Western understanding, without denying the
> > > Eastern understanding.
> > >
> > > The Baltimore Catechism, as with any Western
> > > catechism, is simply explaining the
> > > faith in terms of the worldview of those it
> serves.
> > > There is nothing wrong with
> > > that, but none of the above constitute a formal
> > > definition of faith. If they
> > > did, the Eastern Catholics would be right out
> the
> > > door.
> > >
> > > The Western Catholic Church authoritatively
> teaches
> > > what you're defending and
> > > what we both believe; but she also acknowledges
> as
> > > valid the understandings and
> > > expressions of the East. So, in an Eastern
> church,
> > > the best is to do as they
> > > do, and not try to analyse the issue with a
> Western
> > > outlook - instead accept,
> > > believe, and leave the stopwatch at home.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>:
> > >
> > > > Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > First of all, the liturgy of the Assyrian
> Church
> > > of
> > > > the East, which is the successor to the
> > > Nestorians,
> > > > does NOT even have a meaningful epiclesis.
> > > >
> > > > You can read their complete liturgy at
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://alumni.cs.ucsb.edu/~evodius/liturgy/mariaddai.htm
> > > >
> > > > Second, the Chaldean Catholic Church
> definitely
> > > DOES
> > > > use the words of institution in their Mass at
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
> > > >
> > > > You won't have any trouble finding it, as it
> is
> > > > printed in BOLD for emphasis.
> > > >
> > > > As for the Vatican document you mentioned, it
> > > states
> > > > in part:
> > > >
> > > > "...the Catholic Church considers the words of
> the
> > > > Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and
> > > therefore
> > > > INDISPENSABLE (emphasis added) part of the
> > > Anaphora or
> > > > Eucharistic Prayer...
> > > > AND
> > > > "...the words of Eucharistic Institution are
> > > indeed
> > > > present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not
> in
> > > a
> > > > coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but
> rather
> > > in
> > > > a dispersed euchological way, that is,
> integrated
> > > in
> > > > successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and
> > > > intercession."
> > > > AND
> > > > "When Chaldean faithful are participating in
> an
> > > > Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist,
> the
> > > > Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert
> the
> > > > words of the Institution in the Anaphora of
> Addai
> > > and
> > > > Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the
> Assyrian
> > > > Church of the East."
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore, the Cathechism of the Catholic
> Church
> > > > states:
> > > >
> > > > "In the INSTITUTION NARRATIVE (emphasis in the
> > > text),
> > > > the power of the words and the action of
> Christ,
> > > and
> > > > the power of the Holy Spirit, make
> sacramentally
> > > > present under the species of bread and wine
> > > Christ's
> > > > body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the
> cross
> > > > once for all.
> > > > AND
> > > > "The essential signs of the Eucharistic
> sacrament
> > > are
> > > > wheat bread and grape wine, on which the
> blessing
> > > of
> > > > the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest
> > > pronounces
> > > > the WORDS of CONSECRATION (emphasis added)
> spoken
> > > by
> > > > Jesus during the Last Supper: 'This is my body
> > > which
> > > > will be given up for you...This is the cup of
> my
> > > > blood...'
> > > > AND
> > > > "By the consecration, the transubstantiation
> of
> > > the
> > > > bread and wine into the Body and Blood of
> Christ
> > > is
> > > > brought about."
> > > >
> > > > In addition, Pope John Paul II's 13 March 2005
> > > letter
> > > > to priests at
> > > >
> http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HTH05.HTM
> > > > states:
> > > >
> > > > I will take as my inspiration the words of
> > > Eucharistic
> > > > CONSECRATION (emphasis added), which we say
> every
> > > day
> > > > in persona Christi in order to make present on
> our
> > > > altars the sacrifice made once and for all on
> > > Calvary.
> > > > These words provide us with illuminating
> insights
> > > for
> > > > priestly spirituality: if the whole Church
> draws
> > > life
> > > > from the Eucharist, all the more then must the
> > > life of
> > > > a priest be "shaped" by the Eucharist. So for
> us,
> > > the
> > > > WORDS OF INSTITUTION (emphasis added) must be
> more
> > > > than a formula of consecration: they must be a
> > > > "formula of life".
> > > >
> > > > Finally, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism No.4,
> > > states:
> > > >
> > > > 250. Q. How do the priests exercise this power
> of
> > > > changing bread and wine into the body and
> blood of
> > > > Christ?
> > > > A. The priests exercise this power of changing
> > > bread
> > > > and wine into the body and blood of Christ
> through
> > > the
> > > > words of consecration in the Mass, which are
> the
> > > words
> > > > of Christ: "This is My body; this is My
> blood."
> > > >
> > > > If you want more evidence, please let me know.
> The
> > > > supply is limitless.
> > > >
> > > > Art
> > > >
> > > > --- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > Do lay people still take communion back
> home?
> > > It's
> > > > > not something I've ever seen mentioned
> regarding
> > > > > modern times. In answer to the argument
> that
> > > > > communion was "always" on the tongue, there
> is
> > > ample
> > > > > evidence from the Church Fathers that
> communion
> > > was
> > > > > taken home by laity for sick people - before
> > > > > communion on the tongue became the norm. In
> the
> > > > > East, it's given by spoon, which many in the
> > > West
> > > > > have considered to be contrary to "Take and
> eat
> > > ...
> > > > > take and drink."
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think the words used when the priest
> > > gives
> > > > > out communion are really such an important
> issue
> > > - I
> > > > > showed 3 different forms (old Roman, new
> Roman,
> > > > > Byzantine).
> > > > >
> > > > > If we look at tha baptismal formula, there
> are
> > > two
> > > > > standard forms - "I baptise you ..." and
> "You
> > > are
> > > > > baptised ..." Western Catholics use the
> former,
> > > and
> > > > > Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use the
> latter.
> > > All
> > > > > consider both to be valid.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we look at the bread used, only the
> Romans,
> > > > > Maronites, Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic)
> use
> > > > > unleavened bread - all the rest in the
> Catholic
> > > and
> > > > > Orthodox world use leavened bread. Today
> the
> > > > > customs exist happily side by side; in the
> past
> > > it
> > > > > was an issue to fight over.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of far greater concern is the order of the
> > > > > Eucharistic Prayer - and prior to 1500, the
> > > > > Mozarabic rite didn't have a formal
> Eucharistic
> > > > > Prayer, and was flexible, and only after
> 1500
> > > were
> > > > > the words of institution (This is my Body
> ...
> > > This
> > > > > is my Blood) even required. Even there,
> there
> > > is no
> > > > > agreement on when the bread and wine become
> the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood of Christ. In the West, there is
> > > > > agreement (but not a formal definition) that
> it
> > > > > occurs with the words of institution, which,
> on
> > > > > their own, are considered to constitute the
> > > > > necessary and sufficient sacramental form of
> the
> > > > > Eucharist, and my understanding is that
> > > > > transubstantiation is therefore completed
> here
> > > also;
> > > > > in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) there is
> > > > > agreement that it is completed with the
> > > epiclesis
> > > > > (which comes after the words of institution
> in
> > > the
> > > > > Byzantine and Tridentine rites, but prior to
> the
> > > > > words of consecration in the current
> ordinary
> > > form.)
> > > > > Both points of view exist happily side by
> side
> > > in
> > > > > the Catholic Church united by the Pope.
> > > > >
> > > > > So to an Eastern Catholic, if the epiclesis
> > > comes
> > > > > before the words of institution, the bread
> and
> > > wine
> > > > > are already transformed into the Body and
> Blood
> > > of
> > > > > Christ by the time the Latin priest says "On
> the
> > > > > night he was betrayed" (the form used in the
> > > current
> > > > > ordinary rite, and the Eastern rites) or "On
> the
> > > day
> > > > > before he suffered" (in the Tridentine
> Mass.)
> > > The
> > > > > epiclesis therefore is placed in a rather
> > > strange
> > > > > positon in the current ordinary rite for
> > > Easterners,
> > > > > and in the Tridentine and Eastern rites,
> after
> > > the
> > > > > words of institution, which it more
> comfortable
> > > for
> > > > > both sides.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ironically, however "essential" the words of
> > > > > institution (This is my Body ... This is my
> > > Blood)
> > > > > may be for the Roman-rite Catholics, they
> ARE
> > > > > dispensable in some cases - the Holy Qurbana
> of
> > > > > Addai and Mari omits them, and Rome has
> accepted
> > > > > this as a valid liturgy used by Catholics
> today.
> > >
> > > > > The reasoning: "the words of the institution
> of
> > > the
> > > > > Eucharist are in fact present in the
> anaphora of
> > > > > Addai and Mari, not in the form of a
> coherent
> > > > > narration and in a literal way but in a
> > > eucological
> > > > > and disseminated manner, that is to say they
> are
> > > > > integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving,
> > > praise
> > > > > and intercession which follow." [Pontifical
> > > Council
> > > > > for Promoting Christian Unity, Guidelines
> for
> > > > > Admission to the Eucharist Between the
> Chaldean
> > > > > Church and the Assyrian Church of the East,
> July
> > > 20,
> > > > > 2001.]
> > > > >
> > > > > Words of institution in green [Underlined
> > > section =
> > > > > the only audible words from the priest in
> the
> > > > > Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) in the Liturgy
> of
> > > St
> > > > > John Chrysostom.]
> > > > > Anamnesis in purple
> > > > > Epiclesis in red
> > > > > When the Real Presence becomes present in
> blue
> > > > >
> > > > > Note the sequence:
> > > > > Epiclesis, words of institution, anamnesis =
> > > current
> > > > > Mass
> > > > > Words of institution, anamnesis, epiclesis =
> > > Eastern
> > > > > and Tridentine Mass
> > > > >
> > > > > In other words, the following is the order
> of
> > > our
> > > > > current Mass [Eucharistic Prayer II] -
> > > > >
> > > > > Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of
> all
> > > > > holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these
> gifts
> > > to
> > > > > make them holy, so that they may become for
> us
> > > the
> > > > > body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
> [This
> > > is
> > > > > where the bread and wine become the Body and
> > > Blood
> > > > > for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox]
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Before he was given up to death, a death he
> > > freely
> > > > > accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks,
> He
> > > > > broke the bread, gave it to his disciples,
> and
> > > said:
> > > > > Take this, all of you, and eat it;
> > > > > this is my body which will be given up for
> you.
> > > > > When the supper was ended, he took the cup.
> > > Again he
> > > > > gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to
> his
> > > > > disciples, and said:
> > > > > Take this, all of you, and drink from it;
> > > > > this is the cup of my blood, the blood of
> the
> > > new
> > > > > and everlasting covenant. It will be shed
> for
> > > you
> > > > > and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do
> > > this in
> > > > > memory of me.
> > > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > > ...
> > > > > In memory of his death and resurrection, we
> > > offer
> > > > > you, Father, this life-giving bread, this
> saving
> > > > > cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to
> > > stand in
> > > > > your presence and serve you. May all of us
> who
> > > share
> > > > > in the body and blood of Christ be brought
> > > together
> > > > > in unity by the Holy Spirit.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the
> order
> > > is
> > > > > as follows [Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] -
> > > > >
> > > > > Priest (inaudibly): Having come and having
> > > fulfilled
> > > > > the divine plan for us, on the night when He
> was
> > > > > delivered up, or rather gave Himself up for
> the
> > > life
> > > > > of the world, He took bread in His holy,
> pure
> > > and
> > > > > blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed and
> > > sanctified
> > > > > it and, breaking it, gave it to His holy
> > > disciples
> > > > > and apostles, saying:
> > > > > Priest (aloud): Take, eat, this is my body
> which
> > > is
> > > > > broken for you for the remission of sins.
> > > > > Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after
> supper,
> > > He
> > > > > took the cup, saying:
> > > > > Priest (aloud): Drink of this all of you;
> this
> > > is my
> > > > > blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for
> you
> > > and
> > > > > for many for the remission of sins.
> > > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Priest (inaudibly): Remembering therefore
> this
> > > > > saving commandment, and all that came to
> pass
> > > for
> > > > > our sake, the cross, the tomb, the
> resurrection
> > > on
> > > > > the third day, the ascension into heaven,
> the
> > > > > enthronement at the right hand, and the
> second
> > > and
> > > > > glorious coming.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Priest: Offering You these gifts from Your
> own
> > > > > gifts, in all and for all. We praise You, we
> > > bless
> > > > > You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to
> You,
> > > Lord
> > > > > our God.
> > > > > Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer
> to
> > > You
> > > > > this spiritual worship without the shedding
> of
> > > > > blood, and we ask, pray and entreat You:
> send
> > > down
> > > > > Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these
> gifts
> > > here
> > > > > offered.
> > > > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy bread.
> > > > > Priest: And make this bread the precious
> Body of
> > > > > Your Christ. Amen.
> > > > > Deacon: Father, bless the holy cup.
> > > > > Deacon: Father, bless them both.
> > > > > Priest: Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.
> Amen.
> > > > > Amen. Amen.
> > > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and
> Orthodox]
> > > > >
> > > > > In the Eastern and Tridentine Masses, the
> order
> > > is
> > > > > as follows [Tridentine Mass] -
> > > > >
> > > > > Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in
> > > sanctas
> > > > > ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis
> oculis in
> > > > > caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem,
> tibi
> > > > > gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque
> > > discipulis
> > > > > suis, dicens: Accipite et manducate ex hoc
> > > omnes:
> > > > > hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis
> > > tradetur.
> > > > > (Who, on the day before his Passion, took
> bread
> > > in
> > > > > his holy venerable hands, and looking up to
> > > heaven
> > > > > to you, God, his almighty Father, giving you
> > > thanks,
> > > > > he blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his
> > > > > disciples, saying: Take, all of you, and eat
> of
> > > it:
> > > > > for this is my Body, which will be given up
> for
> > > > > you).
> > > > > Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens
> et
> > > hunc
> > > > > praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles
> > > manus
> > > > > suas, item tibi gratias agens benedixit,
> > > deditque
> > > > > discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite et bibite
> ex
> > > eo
> > > > > omnes: his est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi
> et
> > > > > aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro
> multis
> > > > > effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc
> facite
> > > in
> > > > > meam commemorationem. (Similarly, when
> supper
> > > was
> > > > > ended, taking also this magnificent chalice
> in
> > > his
> > > > > holy venerable hands, giving you thanks in
> like
> > > > > manner, he blessed it, and gave it to his
> > > disciples,
> > > > > saying: Take this, all of you, and drink
> from
> > > it:
> > > > > for this is the cup of my Blood of the new
> and
> > > > > eternal testament, which will be shed for
> you
> > > and
> > > > > for the many for the forgiveness of sins. Do
> > > this in
> > > > > memory of me.)
> > > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood for Western Catholics]
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed
> et
> > > plebs
> > > > > tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii tui,
> Domini
> > > > > nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab
> > > inferis
> > > > > resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae
> > > > > ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati
> tuae
> > > de
> > > > > tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam
> > > sanctam,
> > > > > hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctum vitae
> > > aeternae et
> > > > > Calicem salutis perpetuae. (Therefore, Lord,
> we
> > > your
> > > > > servants, and also your holy people, mindful
> of
> > > the
> > > > > so blessed passion of the same Christ, your
> Son,
> > > our
> > > > > Lord, and of his resurrection from the world
> > > beneath
> > > > > and his glorious ascension to heaven, offer
> to
> > > your
> > > > > exalted majesty, from what you have bestowed
> and
> > > > > given, a pure victim, a holy victim, a
> stainless
> > > > > victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and
> the
> > > > > Chalice of perpetual salvation).
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube
> haec
> > > > > perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in
> sublime
> > > > > altare tuum, in conspectu divinae maiestatis
> > > tuae;
> > > > > ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione
> > > > > sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem
> > > > > sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti et
> > > gratia
> > > > > repleamur. (Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
> Amen)
> > > (We
> > > > > suppliantly beg you, almighty God, bid them
> to
> > > be
> > > > > brought by the hands of your holy Angel to
> your
> > > > > altar on high, in the sight of your divine
> > > majesty,
> > > > > so that as many of us as will, by this
> > > participation
> > > > > of the altar, receive the sacred Body and
> Blood
> > > of
> > > > > your Son may be filled with every heavenly
> > > blessing
> > > > > and grace. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen]).
> > > > > [This is where the bread and wine become the
> > > Body
> > > > > and Blood for Eastern Catholics and
> Orthodox]
> > > > >
> > > > > And then there is the issue of whether the
> > > epiclesis
> > > > > is an invocation of the Holy Spirit (current
> > > Roman
> > > > > norm, Orthodox), the Father (Tridentine
> Mass,
> > > which
> > > > > requires correction to invoke the Holy
> Spirit
> > > for
> > > > > Orthodox use) or Christ (I found one while
> > > reading
> > > > > up for yesterday's post.)
> > > > >
> > > > > So my conclusion is that there are far
> greater
> > > > > things to worry about than the words used to
> > > give
> > > > > communion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Depending on the priest, Mass at the local
> > > cathedral
> > > > > may or may not include the creed, and
> communion
> > > is
> > > > > often enough by self-intinction with the
> chalice
> > > > > left standing on the altar, and the priest
> > > giving
> > > > > the Host. Those are far bigger concerns.
> > > > >
> > > > > God bless,
> > > > > Stephen
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Dianne Dawson
> > > > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:43 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > NewAdvent.org
> > > > > newsletter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > He also substantiated that at least as far
> > > back as
> > > > > the sixth century the words of the priest
> were
> > > not a
> > > > > simple "The Body of Christ." So how far
> back is
> > > far
> > > > > enough? Why go back to the beginning for
> parts
> > > of
> > > > > the Mass and not others. If you take part
> of
> > > the
> > > > > Mass back to the earliest times then you
> need to
> > > > > take the whole Mass back. If we do that
> then
> > > > > Communion is not received at EVERY Mass.
> Also,
> > > > > ordinary people can take Communion back to
> their
> > > > > homes to distribute to other people. How
> far
> > > back
> > > > > would you purpose going back and are you
> willing
> > > to
> > > > > accept ALL of the changes that would entail
> > > > > (remember that the Mass would not be in
> > > English).
> > > > >
> > > > > Dianne
> > > > >
> > > > > Art Kelly <arthurkelly at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > You will note that Stephen substantiated
> my
> > > > > statement
> > > > > that the distribution of Communion in
> the
> > > > > current rite
> > > > > of the Mass is authentic to the early
> > > Chruch,
> > > > > while
> > > > > the Tridentine rite is NOT:
> > > > >
> > > > > In early times the words used by the
> priest
> > > in
> > > > > giving
> > > > > Holy Communion were, for the species of
> > > bread,
> > > > > "Corpus
> > > > > Christi" "the body of Christ" - to which
> the
> > > > > receiver
> > > > > answered, "Amen."
> > > > >
> > > > > If you need further proof from other
> > > > > authoratative
> > > > > sources, please let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Art
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Dianne Dawson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Stephen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for the wonderful and
> extensive
> > > > > > explanation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dianne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stephen Korsman wrote:
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, there were quiet moments, but
> the
> > > church
> > > > > was
> > > > > > a very small one, and very well
> designed
> > > > > > accoustically, even though it was
> quite a
> > > > > primitive
> > > > > > building, being very rural. It was a
> > > > > Latin-rite
> > > > > > building; the congregation was mixed
> > > religion
> > > > > > because there were no Orthodox priests
> in
> > > the
> > > > > area -
> > > > > > this was their visiting Catholicos
> from
> > > India.
> > > > > So
> > > > > > most could be heard; and the clouds of
> > > incense
> > > > > were
> > > > > > thick, but didn't mask the view - not
> > > quite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In terms of not hearing what the
> priest
> > > does,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Byzantines are worse - you don't even
> see
> > > the
> > > > > priest
> > > > > > during the consecration. I've never
> been
> > > to
> > > > > their
> > > > > > liturgies, but there are plenty of
> > > bracketed
> > > > > "(in a
> > > > > > low voice)" statements throughout the
> copy
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom I have.
> I've
> > > put
> > > > > it
> > > > > > in my Google Docs -
> > > > > >
> > > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d46kfgg_33frr86j
> > > > > ... I
> > > > > > have a nice PDF in Greek and English
> if
> > > anyone
> > > > > wants
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding the words said by the priest
> > > when
> > > > > > communion was received, I've done a
> bit of
> > > > > > searching, and can only find the
> following
> > > (on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Melkite Catholic site) -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In early times the words used by the
> > > priest in
> > > > > > giving Holy Communion were, for the
> > > species of
> > > > > > bread, "Corpus Christi" "the body of
> > > Christ" -
> > > > > to
> > > > > > which the receiver answered, "Amen";
> and
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > species of wine, "Sanguis Christi
> poculum
> > > > > Saluti" -
> > > > > > "The Blood of Christ, the cup of
> > > Salvation" -
> > > > > to
> > > > > > which "Amen" was also answered. About
> the
> > > time
> > > > > of
> > > > > > Pope Gregory the Great (Sixth century)
> the
> > > > > form had
> > > > > > changed into "Corpus Domini nostri
> Jesu
> > > > > Christi
> > > > > > conservet animam tuam" - "May the Body
> or
> > > our
> > > > > Lord
> > > > > > Jesus Christ preserve your soul" - to
> > > which
> > > > > the
> > > > > > receiver would respond, as before
> "Amen."
> > > With
> > > > > > Alcuin, preceptor of Charlemagne, we
> find
> > > the
> > > > > form,
> > > > > > "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ
> > > > > preserve you
> > > > > > unto life everlasting."
> > > > > > -
> > > http://www.melkite.org/HolyCommunion.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi
> > > custodiat
> > > > > animam
> > > > > > meam in vitam aeternam. Amen. -
> Tridentine
> > > > > Mass,
> > > > > > Pius V onwards (1570 Missals onwards)
> > > > > > - Cologne Missal (1525 AD)
> > > > > > - Missale Romanum (1474 AD)
> > > > > > - Missale Bracarense (pre-1570 AD)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Corpus et sanguis Domini nostri Jesu
> > > Christi
> > > > > > custodiat corpus meam in vitam
> eternam.
> > > Amen.
> > > > > > - Mozarabic Missal (1500 AD, in it's
> most
> > > > > recent
> > > > > > form, as far as I can work out, but
> dates
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > 7th/8th centuries) (I presume that
> they
> > > > > intinct, or
> > > > > > that this refers to the priest only.)
> > > > > > - Dominican Missal (1267 AD)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Parts of the Mozarabic Mass on video,
> > > which I
> > > > > > cannot differentiate from the
> Tridentine
> > > Mass,
> > > > > > having never been to either:
> > > > > >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXl5yMxwZU
> > > > > >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_UbhqEwxao
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the Stowe Missal (750 AD, Celtic,
> using
> > > > > > leavened bread, unlike the Latin
> rite),
> > > the
> > > > > > communicant says "Amen":
> > > > > > [The Celebrant administers the Body
> and
> > > Blood
> > > > > > from the Paten, saying:]
> > > > > > [From the Sacrament of Baptism:
> > > > > > May the Body and Blood of our Lord
> Jesus
> > > > > Christ be
> > > > > > to thee unto life eternal.
> > > > > > R. Amen.]
> > > > > > [Or, from the Sacrament of Unction:
> > > > > > May the Body and Blood of our Lord
> Jesus
> > > > > Christ, the
> > > > > > Son of the living and
> > > > > > most high God, be to thee unto life
> > > eternal.
> > > > > > R. Amen.]
> > > > > > [The Chalice is administered with the
> > > words:
> > > > > > May the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ
> be
> > > to
> > > > > thee
> > > > > > unto life eternal.
> > > > > > R. Amen.
> > > > > > Priest: Corpus Christ
> > > > > > Response: Amen
> > > > > > - Ambrosian Missal (not sure of the
> date,
> > > but
> > > > > > suppression of the rite was attempted
> in
> > > > > 1060.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And most different of all, the text of
> the
> > > > > Divine
> > > > > > Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has the
> > > > > following:
> > > > > > The servant of God (Name) receives the
> > > Body
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Blood of Christ for forgiveness of
> sins
> > > and
> > > > > eternal
> > > > > > life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > God bless,
> > > > > > Stephen
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Art Kelly
> > > > > > To: Apologetics Group
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:47 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > > > NewAdvent.org
> > > > > > newsletter
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stephen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did the celebrant turn his back to the
> > > > > congregation
> > > > > > and speak in a deliberately low voice
> so
> > > no
> > > > > one
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > see or hear what was happening on the
> > > altar?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Art
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Stephen Korsman
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: Dianne Dawson
> > > > > > > To: Art Kelly ; Apologetics Group
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:43
> AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Re: From
> > > > > > NewAdvent.org
> > > > > > > newsletter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If someone had never been to a Mass
> (in
> > > any
> > > > > > > language) then that one might fly,
> > > otherwise
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > weak argument. If you were traveling
> out
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > country would you avoid going to
> Mass
> > > just
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > you didn't understand every word the
> > > priest
> > > > > spoke?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I doubt it because you are familiar
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > format
> > > > > > > and what is happening and when.
> > > Actually,
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > one of the best reason to have the
> Mass
> > > in
> > > > > Latin.
> > > > > > > There I must agree. I've been to a
> Novus
> > > > > Ordo
> > > > > > Latin
> > > > > > > Mass, which was quite comprehendable
> > > even
> > > > > though I
> > > > > > > only had 2 years of school Latin at
> the
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > been to Mass in Swazi, which I don't
> > > > > understand at
> > > > > > > all, but I knew what was going on.
> I've
> > > even
> > > > > to a
> > > > > > > Malakaran Orthodox service, which is
> not
> > > > > like
> > > > > > ours,
> > > > > > > but Eastern rite, and they have
> their
> > > > > Catholic
> > > > > > > equivalents. Even there, I could
> follow,
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > though it was a rite I'd never been
> to,
> > > and
> > > > > in a
> > > > > > > language I'd never heard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > God bless,
> > > > > > > Stephen
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Stephen Korsman
> > > > > > > skorsman at theotokos.co.za
> > > > > > > The Theotokos Website
> > > > > > > A Rural Virologist || RSS feed
> > > > > > > Sabbath Keepers || RSS feed
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IC | XC
> > > > > > > ---------
> > > > > > > NI | KA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > > > > > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > > > > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > > > > > (703) 904-3763 home
> > > > > > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > > > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > > > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > > > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like a deer that longs for running
> waters
> > > so
> > > > > my soul
> > > > > > longs for you, O God.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ps 42:1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > > > ART KELLY, ATM-S
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> > > > > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
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> > > > > (703) 396-6956 work
> > > > > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > > > > art.kelly at cox.net
> > > > > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Like a deer that longs for running waters
> so
> > > my
> > > > > soul longs for you, O God.
> > > > > Ps 42:1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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