[Apologetics] Purgatory is key issue

Thu Apr 10 18:36:26 EDT 2008

I had forgotten that Cardinal Dulles is a Jesuit. That
raises my opinion of the Jesuits somewhat. I see that
not all of them are bad.

Art

--- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za> wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Anti-Catholics tend to view the Jesuits as a
> sinister force doing the evil 
> work of the Pope.  Catholics who don't like the
> Jesuits tend to view them as 
> ultra-liberal theologians.  I can understand that
> somewhat - we had a few 
> Jesuit priests once, and they decried various
> miracles in the Bible, 
> explained away a lot of what Jesus did as myth, and
> got quite a few people 
> upset.  The one day I even wondered whether or not
> the priest believed in 
> God as more than the power of love between humans. 
> On the other hand, I've 
> come across many orthodox Jesuits.  Avery Cardinal
> Dulles would be an 
> orthodox one, but having a Secretary of State as a
> father and a CIA director 
> as an uncle may have brought on some conspiracy
> claims about him, although 
> that's just my suspicion - I haven't heard of any.
> 
> Wikipedia says "Within the Catholic Church, some
> Jesuits are criticized by 
> some parties for allegedly being overly liberal and
> allegedly deviating 
> substantially from official Church teaching and
> papal directives, especially 
> on such issues as abortion, priestly celibacy,
> homosexuality, and liberation 
> theology."
> 
> It also says "The Jesuits have frequently been
> described by their enemies 
> (both Catholic and Protestant) as engaged in various
> conspiracies." - but I 
> haven't come across Catholic conspiracy theorists
> claiming this.
> 
> God bless,
> Stephen
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Art Kelly" <arthurkelly at yahoo.com>
> To: "Apologetics Group" <apologetics at gathman.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Purgatory is key issue
> 
> 
> > It's funny, but many pro-Catholic apologists have
> much
> > worse opinions of the Jesuits than do
> anti-Catholic
> > apologists.
> >
> > Art
> >
> > --- Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> > They could reasonably claim that I am
> >> mis-representing the Catholic
> >> > position (and I have gotten that on occasion -
> >> those Catholics are tricky,
> >> > they pretend to use words in a different way
> just
> >> to deceive you!).
> >>
> >> That's something I've had a lot of.  Especially
> with
> >> purgatory, and
> >> worshipping Mary.  It's because of that that I've
> >> been accused of being a
> >> Jesuit spy, and other laughable things.  Often
> >> they'll find a website that
> >> uses the word "worship" or claims that we atone
> for
> >> our sins, and won't
> >> acknowledge that the use of the words "worship"
> and
> >> "atone" are not used in
> >> their way.
> >>
> >> God bless,
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Stuart D. Gathman" <stuart at gathman.org>
> >> To: <apologetics at gathman.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:57 PM
> >> Subject: [Apologetics] Purgatory is key issue
> >>
> >>
> >> >I think the purgatory issue is the key to ending
> >> the Catholic and
> >> >Evangelical straw-man massacre.  Evangelicals
> will
> >> repeat the doctrine of
> >> >purgatory over and over again in their own
> words,
> >> but continue to denounce
> >> >the Catholic doctrine - even when presented with
> >> the same vocabulary! There
> >> >really is a suspension of reason.  They could
> >> reasonably claim that I am
> >> >mis-representing the Catholic position (and I
> have
> >> gotten that on
> >> >occasion - those Catholics are tricky, they
> pretend
> >> to use words in a
> >> >different way just to deceive you!).  But
> instead
> >> there is a cognitive
> >> >dissonance with affirming a doctrine when
> >> attributed to Evangelicals, but
> >> >denouncing the same doctrine with same words and
> >> same scriptures when
> >> >attributed to Catholics.  Amazing.  They really
> >> believe that "all Catholic
> >> >doctrines are unbiblical - even the ones I agree
> >> with".  Pressing on the
> >> >contradiction tends to make them prefer heresy
> (God
> >> never disciplines true
> >> >believers) to admitting that they might agree
> with
> >> Catholics on just a few
> >> >points.
> >> >
> >> > Sugarman just hit me a slow high return just
> >> asking for a slam dunk:
> >> > "The bottom line is if no doctrine can be back
> up
> >> by scripture then its
> >> > not true."  Boy could I have fun with that. 
> But
> >> I'll restrain myself.
> >> > I'll just lament with the Professor in Narnia:
> >> "Logic!  What do they teach
> >> > in schools these days?"  It may be that
> >> apologetics is useless without an
> >> > introductory logic course first.  It may be
> better
> >> to just quote a few
> >> > scriptures and leave it alone.
> >> >
> >> > -- 
> >> >        Stuart D. Gathman <stuart at bmsi.com>
> >> > Business Management Systems Inc.  Phone: 703
> >> 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154
> >> > "Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus
> addictis" -
> >> background song for
> >> > a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go
> >> from here?" commercial.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Apologetics mailing list
> >> > Apologetics at gathman.org
> >> > http://bmsi.com/mailman/listinfo/apologetics
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Apologetics at gathman.org
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> >>
> >
> >
> > ART KELLY, ATM-S
> > 13524 Brightfield Lane
> > Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
> > (703) 904-3763 home
> > (703) 396-6956 work
> > arthurkelly at yahoo.com
> > art.kelly at cox.net
> > ArtK135 at Netscape.net
> >
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ART KELLY, ATM-S
13524 Brightfield Lane
Herndon, Virginia 20171-3360
(703) 904-3763 home
(703) 396-6956 work
arthurkelly at yahoo.com
art.kelly at cox.net
ArtK135 at Netscape.net

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