[Apologetics] Stealth apologetics backfires

[Stephen Korsman]

Hi

1) sin will have been cleansed (100% sanctification) in heaven
2) sin has temporal consequences (punishment)

Both of which protestants agree with.

I prefer changing those propositions to the following, with the numbering corresponding to your numbering:

2a) Sin has temporal consequences (discipline)
2b) Discipline is one of the means by which sanctification occurs
1) Sanctification will be complete by the time we reach heaven

Protestants, for the most part, tend to agree with all of them, except that some (possibly just to disagree) I've discussed it with allow for growth after death in heaven [i.e. a continued growth going on forever.]

When all this is linked to purgatory, the disagreements are usually as follows:

- God disciplines nobody [easily silenced from the NT]
- Sanctification will be complete by the time we die
- Any lessons left unlearned will be instantaneously made up for with no process involved - what is lacking will be perfected by God without our involvement

Further discussions around our lack of involvement in the last point usually end up going nowhere; since purgatory may be an instantaneous event, there is no problem with the amount of "time" it takes, but that then divides them into 2 groups:

1. Jesus died for our sins and we don't have to be punished [i.e. ignoring everything discussed thus far]
2. No but yeah but no but ... where does it say we must worship Mary in the Bible [i.e. change to an easier topic]

I would not advise giving up on this method.  It does plant very strong seeds in their minds.  Those who throw it out the window, in the end, are really no more heretics after they hear the logic than before - they've just added another item to their list.  Even they may just take much longer than your conversation to comprehend what they've been told - in the beginning, strong gut reactions are not uncommon.  I've heard back from quite rabid Adventists after utterly failed debates, and a few years later what I said started making sense, do to time and other factors, and they changed on a few issues, left Adventism, lost much of their anti-Catholic-ness ... maybe one day they'll become Catholic too.

When someone is confronted with a truth that they can't deal with, the reaction can be strong.  Denial - sometimes very pronounced - is one of the first reactions.  But any form of logic or reasoning or list of verses from the Bible can lead to denial.  So this attempt of yours didn't backfire; it just wasn't an instant cure.

God bless,
Stephen


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stuart D. Gathman 
  To: apologetics at gathman.org 
  Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 4:48 AM
  Subject: [Apologetics] Stealth apologetics backfires


  I've turned someone into a heretic.  I separated claims *about*
  purgatory (prayers for the dead - which Protestants would reject)
  from the definition of purgatory itself, which I reduced to two
  propositions:

  1) sin will have been cleansed (100% sanctification) in heaven
  2) sin has temporal consequences (punishment)

  Both of which protestants agree with.

  Wouldn't you know it, once associated with "purgatory", DavidJ immediately
  begain attacking those propositions as "unscriptural" and has now announced
  that

  1) all true Christians will be 100% sanctified *before* death
  2) that God never punishes true Christians for their sin

  and anything to the contrary is unscriptural, based on what is apparently his
  highest priority presupposition - that all Roman Catholic doctrines are
  unscriptural.  To top it off, I then got all sarcastic and said:

     RE:   Papal Infallibility or Papal Inerrancy?

     CustomDesigned Wrote:
     ......scriptural authority is irrelevant because your problem is with basic
     logic .....

     DavidJ Wrote:
     Clearly you have identified the huge chasm between yourself; a
     Roman Catholic, and Bible Believing born again Christians like myself, to whom
     scriptural authority is absolute and final. Jesus confirmed this when He said,
     "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." (John. 17:17)

     CustomDesigned Wrote:
     You are right.  I repent of using logic and reason, and will use only
     Scripture - throwing logic and reason to the wind.

  So I've turned a previously basically orthdox (if unreasonable) guy into a
  raving heretic by playing bait and switch with purgatory.  I guess I should
  have been forewarned by his claim that "*all* Roman Catholic doctrines are
  unscriptural", which would include even those he agrees with.  A highly 
  unstable logical state.

  And while I was being sarcastic with the "only Scripture and no reason",
  I now see that that is exactly what is required in a case like DavidJ.
  It was clear that he could not use logic, and attempting to force him to do 
  so was wrong.  I should have just quoted some appropriate scripture and 
  left it at that.

  Just a warning for other would be apologists.  It is easy to do more
  harm that good.

  -- 
          Stuart D. Gathman <stuart at bmsi.com>
  Business Management Systems Inc.  Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154
  "Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
  a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.
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