[Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller

Mon Jun 1 22:36:10 EDT 2009

Diane;

I think that you need to give more thought to the military issues that
require lethal force to resolve. Abraham killed, but he trained 300 men to
be soldiers, and they also killed. David killed both in war and for personal
reasons. War was justified by God, personal murder was indicted and
punished!

See my comments, in parenthesis,in the attachment.

Dennis Orr
  _____  

From: apologetics-bounces at gathman.org
[mailto:apologetics-bounces at gathman.org] On Behalf Of Dianne Dawson
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 4:27 PM
To: Stephen Korsman; Apologetics Group
Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller

Stephen,

You pose some very interesting scenarios.  This is the way I understand it
from various priests and theologians:

If you inadvertantly kill someone in defense of yourself or another then it
is not immoral.    In an emergency you certainly are not going to have time
to think thing out.  However, if you have the time to discern then you are
morally obligated not to intentionally kill someone.  Like I said, sometimes
you don't have time to think about what you are doing and sometimes you have
no choice.  Either way, your intent is defense - not murder.  Yes, a soldier
is not responsible for killing an enemy because he doesn't premeditatively
kill.

Let's take a terminal cancer patient.  The patient is not obligated to
endure excrutiating pain just to avoid the possibility of death that comes
from high dosages.  Neither is the doctor obligated to withhold pain
relieving medication.  The INTENT is to relieve pain - NOT cause death.
However, at the end of the disease it takes a great deal of medication to
control the pain and that dosage may be the cause of the patient's death.
Neither the doctor nor the patient would have any culpability in the death.

What about a woman who is pregnant and is diagnosed with cancer.  Is she
required to refuse chemotherapy because that treatment might terminate the
pregnancy?  No.  Because it is not her INTENT to kill her baby.

Then there's the mother who is having problems during labor.  The husband is
told by the doctor that he can either save the mother or the baby but not
both.  Again, there is no intent on anyone's part to deliberately cause the
death of either mom or baby.  It is simply an unavoidable result.

To deliberately, with malice and aforethought, stalk and kill someone - that
is immoral.

Dianne

Like a deer that longs for running waters so my soul longs for you, O God.
Ps 42:1

  _____  

From: Stephen Korsman <skorsman at theotokos.co.za>
To: Apologetics Group <apologetics at gathman.org>
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 3:43:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller

Hi

Before I start out, I want to say that I am opposed to the killing of
abortionists.  I believe the death sentence is okay under certain
circumstances, but can't imagine when it would be better than more humane
methods.  However, seeing our country's prisons, and the gangs there, it's a
breeding ground for something worse than what goes in.  And the same applies
to the USA, if Prison Break is anything to go by.

What I need an answer to is this: when is killing in the defence of another
person's life immoral, and when it is not immoral?

If someone walks up to you with a knife and is about to stab you, and you
whack them on the head with a brick and they die, that's fine.  A similar
defence of someone else is fine too.  Unfortunate, but not immoral.

If a sniper took out a soldier just before that soldier could kill an
innocent woman, is that okay?

If a sniper had taken out Hitler before he could do the damage he did, would
that have been okay?

When can a 20 year old soldier morally kill another 20 year old soldier,
assuming we have a valid scenario of a just war?  Does the "military" status
of the killed soldier who was forcibly conscripted by his government make it
okay to kill him?  Does he have less of a right to life than a civilian?

Two soldiers on opposite sides in a just war shoot at the same time and both
die.  Which one goes to hell?  Or were they just "following orders"?

If someone is arming a nuclear missile, is it okay to shoot him dead before
he can press the button?  Is it okay to bomb his building?  Is it okay to
leak nerve gas into his building?  Is it okay to activate a lethal device
around his neck that was designed to enable his death should he do something
wrong?

Bye,
Stephen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Art Kelly <mailto:arthurkelly at yahoo.com>  
To: Apologetics Group <mailto:apologetics at gathman.org>  ; Michele Allen
<mailto:arochaallen at juno.com>  ; Colleen Parro <mailto:rnclife at swbell.net>
; Father  <mailto:mail at priestsforlife.org> Pavone ; Darby Fitzpatrick
<mailto:darbyfitzpatrick at att.net>  ; Jim Murphy
<mailto:jmurf80 at bellsouth.net>  ; Ward Collins <mailto:wcollins at netins.net>
; info at lifeissues.org ; daveandrusko at gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 1:09 AM
Subject: [Apologetics] Thoughts on the killing of Dr. George Tiller

"All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."  (Gospel of St.
Matthew 26:52, KJV)

Tiller was one of the very few doctors who practiced late-term abortions.
As horrible as Tiller's actions were, it is unthinkable for a pro-life
person to engage in murder.  How could someone be so self-contradictory?
(As this is written, a suspect is in custody, but his identity has not been
released.)

As shocking as this killing was, it was even more so that it occurred at a
church, where Tiller was serving as an usher.  

What was the church, I wondered.  What kind of church would want someone
like Tiller as a member, much less allow him to serve as an usher?

The church is the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas, which is
part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).

I went to their website and found this statement:  "Our jobs do not define
us."

It is likely that statement was written with Tiller in mind.  Certainly our
jobs are NOT the ONLY thing that defines us.  But how we live our lives in
EVERYTHING we do--including our job--does, in fact, define us.

As a member of the Reformation Lutheran Church, what was Tiller's theology?

Did he believe that he was "saved" because he made a one-time altar call
that accepted Jesus as his Lord and personal savior?  Or did he believe that
his charitable works for the poor would "earn" his right to heaven, despite
his continual killing of unborn children?  

Was he able to compartmentalize his religious beliefs from his occupation? 

And what about the Reformation Lutheran Church?  Did they "look the other
way" and pretend that what Tiller did during the week did not matter on
Sunday morning?  Or did this church embrace abortions, including late-term
abortions, as a positive good?

It is likely the abortion supporters will try to blame all pro-lifers for
this killing, probably with the help of a large portion of the news media.
To counteract that, we should all speak out against the killing of anyone.
(I oppose the death penalty under almost all circumstances.)

But while strongly deploring this murder, I think we can publicly ask the
Reformation Lutheran Church and the ELCA what Tiller was doing there serving
as an usher. He had NOT repented of his sins.  Tiller was going full speed
ahead in performing unlimited abortions on demand up to the moment of birth.

How can that be reconciled with ANY form of Christianity?

Art

  _____  

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